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  1. #16756
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    To quote Dr. Strange: we’re in the end game now.


  2. #16757
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Yeah, you're right. We should totally care more about someone fiddling with their hair via a maybe/maybe not on purpose middle finger. ****'s a pretty big deal.
    It’s just one of the many many pieces that make up the character of a terrible person.

    No I don’t think we should make a big deal over it. My point was lighthearted anyway. I was saying it sums up his presidency perfectly because someone tells him he’s wrong and his response is “**** you”. That’s his entire existence. Whether it was intentional or not, it’s just funny.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  3. #16758
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    Ok.....sigh.....let’s hear it Trumpers. What’s the spin today? Has Hannity delivered the taking points to you yet? How much longer will you deny the gaping hole in the side of the Titanic?


  4. #16759
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    It's the media's fault

  5. #16760
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    A couple of different ways you can go with this.

    One side will scream about it being all the proof you need. The other will just say it's another nothing burger.

    Seems like the circus is about to get larger. Add that extra ring and turn it into a big top three ring affair.
    Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government, owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people. To destroy this invisible government, to dissolve the unholy alliance between corrupt business and corrupt politics is the first task of the statesmanship of the day.-Theodore Roosevelt

    They use force, to make you do, what the deciders, have decided you must do.
    ZdlR

  6. #16761
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    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    Ok.....sigh.....let’s hear it Trumpers. What’s the spin today? Has Hannity delivered the taking points to you yet? How much longer will you deny the gaping hole in the side of the Titanic?

    Great minds my brother...great minds!
    Prior to 11/1/19: if you were on my ignore list, I was sticking to ignoring you thanks to great advise.
    From 11/1/19 on: I will no longer be responding to comments back to people on my ignore list.
    _____

    Think long and hard about why you respond to nonsense. Please!


  7. #16762
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    I've noticed we haven't seen Brewers around here recently
    Yankees Farm System

  8. #16763
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    This is all seems pretty simple and I've got no idea how you spin it. Trump wanted investigations into 2016, Biden, and Burisma. He needed the Ukrainian president to publicly claim those things would happen in order for him to discuss security assistance, to even get a meeting. When he realized how bad this could look after the Bill Taylor text, he made sure to instruct Sondland to emphasize no quid pro quo. Taylor's explanation of everything leading up to the events paints the president in an extremely bad light. I encourage everybody to read the full transcript, although I expect any Trump supporters will just ignore it. Here's the full testimony.

    https://games-cdn.washingtonpost.com...e984a85660.pdf

    I also think it's about time Ukraine got it's own thread, with a full summary as I know it's hard for everyone to keep up with every testimony and everything Trump did. Here's a decent summary of just Taylor's testimony for those who don't want to read the whole thing.

    “In August and September of this year, I became increasingly concerned that our relationship with Ukraine was being fundamentally undermined by an irregular, informal channel of U.S. policy-making and by the withholding of vital security assistance for domestic political reasons,” the statement reads.

    Taylor wrote that when he first heard in July that the $250 million in military aid to Ukraine had been frozen, he realized “that one of the key pillars of our strong support for Ukraine was threatened.”

    “The irregular policy channel was running contrary to the goals of longstanding U.S. policy,” the satement reads.

    Taylor opened his testimony by laying out what happened chronologically.

    He began by noting that his ousted predecessor — Ambassador Marie Yovanovitch — was “treated poorly” due to “political machinations both in Kyiv and in Washington.”

    Yovanovitch has since testified that she was told she'd been forced out by the president.

    After her ouster, Taylor stepped into her role. “I feared that those problems were still present,” he said.
    Taylor added concerns about “the role of Rudolph Giuliani.”

    Describing the situation in Kyiv upon his arrival in June as “weird,” Taylor made note of “regular” and “highly irregular” channels through which the U.S. set policy toward Ukraine.

    He said that his position gave him him control over the regular channel, but not the irregular one. That irregular channel, Taylor said, included “then-Special Envoy Kurt Volker, Ambassador Sondland, Secretary of Energy Rick Perry” and Rudy Giuliani.

    “Although this irregular channel was well-connected in Washington,” Taylor wrote, it appeared to exist to circumvent the State Department.

    Taylor pegged the birth of the so-called “irregular channel” — known elsewhere as the “three amigos” — to May 23, when Volker, Perry, and Sondland briefed Trump after returning from Kyiv where they had attended Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky’s inauguration.

    Once in Kyiv, Taylor said that he began to notice many things were amiss. An attempt to arrange a meeting between Trump and Zelensky hit an unexpected roadblock. On June 27, the statement reads, Sondland told Taylor over the phone that Zelensky “needed to make clear” that he wasn’t blocking any “investigations.”
    Taylor added that in a conversation ahead of a call scheduled with President Zelensky on June 28, Volker said that he planned on being clear about “what President Zelensky should do to get the White House meeting.”
    Taylor noted that he wrote a memo on June 30, memorializing the call.

    He went on to say that he first heard about a delay in military aid to Ukraine on July 18, from an anonymous Office of Management and Budget official who announced the delay off-screen during a video conference call.
    “All the OMB staff person said was that the directive had come from the President to the Chief of Staff to OMB,” Taylor’s statement reads.

    Taylor recounted an Aug. 27 conversation he had with then-National Security Adviser John Bolton during a visit to Kyiv. Taylor said that he expressed concern about the aid being withheld to Bolton, who recommended that Taylor send a cable directly to Secretary of State Mike Pompeo. In that cable — sent on Aug. 29 — Taylor told Pompeo that “he could not and would not defend such a policy.”

    Taylor added that Ukrainian official Andriy Yermak — who met with Giuliani in Spain on Aug. 2 — asked him about why the military aid had been withheld. “I was embarrassed that I could give him no explanation,” Taylor wrote.

    In its recounting of events, the statement begins to rely on information that Taylor heard from National Security Council aide Tim Morrison, starting with a phone call on Aug. 22. In a later phone call, Morrison relayed to Taylor interactions that occurred between U.S. and Ukrainian officials at a Sept. 1 meeting in Warsaw.

    In one such interaction, the statement reads, Sondland purportedly told Yermak that the military aid “would not come until President Zelensky committed to pursue the Burisma investigation.”

    Taylor then texted Sondland, asking whether “we [are] now saying that security assistance and [a] WH meeting are conditioned on investigations?” Sondland asked Taylor to call him, and the pair spoke over the phone.

    Sondland, Taylor said, explained that Trump had said he wanted Zelensky “to state publicly that Ukraine will investigate Burisma and alleged Ukrainian interference in the 2016 U.S. election.”

    Taylor added that Sondland admitted he had made a mistake when he had tied a meeting with Trump to investigations. Not only was a meeting with Trump dependent on Zelensky announcing the investigations, he now explained, but, Taylor wrote, “‘everything’ was dependent on such an announcement, including security assistance.” Sondland purportedly told Taylor that he wanted to put Zelensky “in a public box” by making the statement.

    Another, alternative possibility purportedly came up on the call: Attorney General Bill Barr and Ukraine’s general prosecutor would make a joint statement about investigations into potential interference in the 2016 elections. That did not come to fruition.

    Taylor noted that even though he did not see a transcript of Trump’s infamous July 25 call with Zelensky until it was publicly released, he had understood for a long time that “‘investigations’ was a term that Ambassadors Volker and Sondland used to mean matters related to the 2016 elections, and to investigations of Burisma and the Bidens.”

    He added that President Zelensky had briefly agreed to do a CNN interview during a conversation with Sondland, where the Ukrainian leader would make an unspecified “public statement” that would “clear things up.”

    Though that interview does not appear to have occurred, Taylor noted a conversation he had about the proposed exchange with Sondland. The EU Ambassador purportedly told Taylor that “President Trump is a businessman.When a businessman is about to sign a check to someone who owes him something, he said, the businessman asks that person to pay up before signing the check,” the statement reads. Taylor added that Volker used “the same terms” a few days later, eventually prompting Taylor’s text to Sondland in which he called the withholding of aid “crazy.”
    Last edited by Sofnr; 10-22-2019 at 09:36 PM.

  9. #16764
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    Former top law enforcement officer for the US government...just saying.

    Prior to 11/1/19: if you were on my ignore list, I was sticking to ignoring you thanks to great advise.
    From 11/1/19 on: I will no longer be responding to comments back to people on my ignore list.
    _____

    Think long and hard about why you respond to nonsense. Please!


  10. #16765
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    I don't follow Canadian politics. I would hope that anyone voting in any country would know about who is running and form an educated opinion on who they should vote for. I didn't want to take the time to do that so I didn't vote. I'm not talking about this anymore.
    I got it. So politics is basically entertainment for you. It’s like following the NFL instead of the CFL. A big season of the Apprentice or following WWE which is why you’re more concerned with what AOC has to say about gardening then informing yourself about what is going on in your own country. Ever considered moving to the US? Seems like the next move for you

  11. #16766
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sluggo1 View Post
    BO never experienced any media backlash like Trump has. Never.

    People were attacking Trump's cabinet appointees before they did anything.

    The media went out of their way to find bad pictures of Melania. IOf they would have done this to Michelle there would have been cries of racist.

    Melania has yet to appear on a magazine cover like Michelle did. magazines are afraid of backlash.

    If you can't see that the two presidents and their families are treated differently you are blind.
    Of course they are treated differently. It's worth pointing out however that both have acted differently. If you think their being treated different is not because of this, you are blind.

  12. #16767
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    And the person who wrote the text said he had no idea if that was true or not. I know you don't want to accept this because it destroys your belief that it exonerates Trump.

    The person admitted that he did not know if that is what Trump actually didn't do, so what exactly do you disagree with him about? Are you disagreeing with the person who wrote the text about why he wrote the text?

    do you think this supports what you have been saying? this is what he said and there would have be something to contradict that against Trump. innocent until proven guilty.






    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    Ok.....sigh.....let’s hear it Trumpers. What’s the spin today? Has Hannity delivered the taking points to you yet? How much longer will you deny the gaping hole in the side of the Titanic?

    what is damaging here?

    nobody has denied that Trump wanted Ukraine to investigate the 2016 election or Biden's known corruption.






    https://www.foxnews.com/media/kevin-...quiry-argument

    Republican lawmaker 'destroyed' latest impeachment inquiry witness argument: McCarthy
    House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy, R-Calif., said a fellow Republican lawmaker deconstructed a key part of the latest Trump impeachment inquiry witness testimony in Tuesday's closed-door session.

    "In 90 seconds, we had John Ratcliffe destroy [acting U.S. Ambassador to Ukraine Bill] Taylor's whole argument," McCarthy said.

    The questioning by Ratcliffe, a Texas Republican and member of both the House Intelligence and Judiciary Committees, was an important moment in the hearing, McCarthy claimed.

    "We can't really talk about it," he said.

    Ratcliffe appeared on Fox News after the testimony and said there were new details brought to light, but said nothing "worthy of impeachment."

    McCarthy added House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff, D-Calif., is not allowing lawmakers to speak too specifically about the proceedings, in an interview Tuesday on "The Ingraham Angle."

    "Adam Schiff won't let us talk about what happened," he said regarding U.S. diplomat to Ukraine Bill Taylor's closed-door hearing on Capitol Hill. "There is no quid pro quo."


    The California lawmaker also claimed the impeachment inquiry process continues to be based largely on testimony from those without first-hand knowledge of the Trump-Ukraine situation.

    "The one thing that you find out in this process is all this information is just like that whistleblower... everything is second-, third-, and fourth-hand information," he said.

    He criticized Schiff for how he is conducting the proceedings, claiming the relevant Republican lawmakers are unable to view information from the hearings unless they are accompanied by the chairman's staff members.

    "What they are doing [is] they are changing every rule we ever had," he said.

    https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/n...-in-deposition

    'There is no quid pro quo': Devin Nunes says John Ratcliffe 'destroyed' diplomat in deposition
    Texas Rep. John Ratcliffe "destroyed" a key U.S. diplomat during a closed-door deposition, according to a fellow Republican congressman who was present.

    William Taylor, the top U.S. diplomat in Ukraine, appeared before House investigators on Tuesday as part of an impeachment inquiry.

    Rep. Devin Nunes, the top Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, said leaks that led to headlines about how the diplomat said President Trump tied security aid for Ukraine to investigations into the Biden family are misleading.

    "The truth is, in two minutes, John Ratcliffe destroyed this witness. There is no quid pro quo," Nunes told Fox News host Sean Hannity.

    Nunes did not disclose what exactly was said in the exchange, but in a Fox News appearance earlier in the day, Ratcliffe denied that Taylor or any other witness has given testimony about Ukraine being aware of a quid pro quo.


    "I found [Taylor] to be very forthright. He had very strong opinions about Donald Trump’s approach to foreign policy," Ratcliffe said. "But again, the mainstream media reporting that he provided evidence of a quid pro quo involving military aid is false. I questioned him directly on that. And under [House Intelligence Chairman] Adam Schiff’s rules I can’t tell you what he said, but I can tell you what he didn’t say. And neither he or any other witness has provided testimony that the Ukrainians were aware that military aid was being withheld. You can’t have a quid pro quo with no quo."

    Media reports on Taylor's closed-door deposition centered on the leak of his opening statement which said Gordon Sondland, Trump’s envoy to the European Union, informed Ukrainian officials they would not receive security assistance unless they investigated a company that hired Joe Biden’s son. "Ambassador Sondland told Mr. Yermak that the security assistance money would not come until President Zelensky committed to pursue the Burisma investigation," Taylor said, referring to Andrey Yermak, an adviser to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky.

    House Democrats who are leading the impeachment proceeding described Taylor's interview as "disturbing" and a "sea change" that "could accelerate matters." Democrats also said there were inconsistencies between Taylor's and Sondland's testimonies and may move to bring the latter back in for questioning.

    Their GOP colleagues dismissed there being a watershed moment on Tuesday. Rep. Mark Meadows of North Carolina said the leaks from Taylor's deposition "have been laughably overblown and don’t tell the full story."

    "Still no evidence of quid pro quo. Much of the statement and hearsay allegations didn’t hold up against any real scrutiny. The FULL transcript should be released immediately," he added on Twitter.

    of course people on the right are going to believe the Republicans and people on the left are going to believe the Democrats.
    who is being shady here? Democrats.
    who is doing all of this in secret and then leaking what they think benefits them? Democrats.
    who has been exposed more? Democrats.
    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    Either care about all of it like a decent human being or shut the **** up and stop selective outrage based on whether it serves your political purposes.

    a person is smart. people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals.
    #TrumpDerangementSyndrome
    the anti-Trump movement seems to be getting dumber

  13. #16768
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    do you think this supports what you have been saying? this is what he said and there would have be something to contradict that against Trump. innocent until proven guilty.

    what is damaging here?

    nobody has denied that Trump wanted Ukraine to investigate the 2016 election or Biden's known corruption.


    Well GGGMen and DBroncos, you got your answer on how they'll spin it. Pure delusion.

    What is damaging?

    "Ambassador Sondland also told me that he now recognized that he had made a mistake by earlier telling the Ukrainian officials to whom he spoke that a White House meeting with President Zelenskyy was dependent on a public announcement of investigations - in fact, Ambassador Sondland said, "everything" was dependent on such an announcement, including security assistance. He said that President Trump wanted President Zelenskyy "in a public box" by making a public statement about ordering such an investigation.

  14. #16769
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post


    Well GGGMen and DBroncos, you got your answer on how they'll spin it. Pure delusion.

    What is damaging?

    "Ambassador Sondland also told me that he now recognized that he had made a mistake by earlier telling the Ukrainian officials to whom he spoke that a White House meeting with President Zelenskyy was dependent on a public announcement of investigations - in fact, Ambassador Sondland said, "everything" was dependent on such an announcement, including security assistance. He said that President Trump wanted President Zelenskyy "in a public box" by making a public statement about ordering such an investigation.
    is this what Ambassador Sondland knew or what he believed?

    I'm not going to wait for your answer, this is what he believed. that doesn't mean that is what Trump told him or what was factually going on. he can believe whatever he wants. you have to have something that this is what Trump told him was going on. remember innocent until proven guilty, where is the proof Trump is guilty.





    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    Either care about all of it like a decent human being or shut the **** up and stop selective outrage based on whether it serves your political purposes.

    a person is smart. people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals.
    #TrumpDerangementSyndrome
    the anti-Trump movement seems to be getting dumber

  15. #16770
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpecialFNK View Post
    media is saturated this morning over Trump using the word lynching.

    I haven't really seen anyone commenting on Trump's use of the word lynching. is there a reason for that?
    I still don't think Trump should have used this word. maybe he had an intent. maybe he even knew what would be exposed by doing this. it is funny the people that were outraged at Trump using this word, when it was exposed who had used the word in a comparable way in the past.

    Joe Biden from 1998, but I guess it's okay since he now apologized..

    Quote Originally Posted by GGGGG-Men View Post
    Either care about all of it like a decent human being or shut the **** up and stop selective outrage based on whether it serves your political purposes.

    a person is smart. people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals.
    #TrumpDerangementSyndrome
    the anti-Trump movement seems to be getting dumber

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