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  1. #46
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    Deals you would take back

    Shapiro's struggles (or the Jays struggles) are a consequence of AA's run at a championship. Once you realize that you'll be much happier.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkcavy View Post
    Shapiro's struggles (or the Jays struggles) are a consequence of AA's run at a championship. Once you realize that you'll be much happier.
    Of course. People have a hard time with this. Was it magical? Absolutely. Was it actual magic on the part of the GM? Obviously not. Somehow the two things are hard to seperate.

    For like 4 years we complained that obvious holes were filled with garbage and depth was poor. Roster management and fine tuning was definitely not his strength. For where we are in the cycle we've got the right guys in charge imo. In 2 years they've shown a more deft touch in that particular area. Not even close.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by superfio View Post
    AA did his job. He watched his team stampede into 2 ALCS from a distance. Heck of a winning run after 22 years of mediocrity.

    His successor? Doing his job too, spoiling a championship calibre team into ground zero. Rinse and. Repeating. Its the Cleveland fiasco all over again
    Time will certainly tell. Giving these guys a break until we see what they're really up to is a smart play. It's not like they didn't try in the off season, they just fell short on a guy like Fowler.

  4. #49
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    This we agree on, more data to make an informed decision is always better. And I admit that time may prove my interim analysis of Shapiro-Atkins wrong but that doesn't mean that you give them a free pass until you have 5 or 10 years of data to give them interim grades.

    You analyze based on the known data and extrapolate and include an explanation that the data is limited

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    Of course. People have a hard time with this. Was it magical? Absolutely. Was it actual magic on the part of the GM? Obviously not. Somehow the two things are hard to seperate.

    For like 4 years we complained that obvious holes were filled with garbage and depth was poor. Roster management and fine tuning was definitely not his strength. For where we are in the cycle we've got the right guys in charge imo. In 2 years they've shown a more deft touch in that particular area. Not even close.

    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
    yes the depth is better. But is it long term depth? I'd say it isn't. It's bandaids to cover imperfections that will need to be replaced in short order that has used resources and made the team noticeably worse. wouldn't it be better to use those resources to better the team on a longer-term rather than bandaids? One thing about bandaids, they're pretty much useless after you use them.

    Fine if you want to say we'll punt on the 2017-2018 seasons while we reload, be honest about it. Tell the fans what you're doing but don't play pass the buck on to AA, just because some fans aren't savvy enough to see what you're doing. Own up to your own work.

    Isn't that what Cashman did last July. Now look at them. Yankee fans bought in because Cashman was honest with them. Do you think Blue Jay fans are any less enlightened? Be honest own your vision. Stop playing pass the buck.
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 05-06-2017 at 12:51 PM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    yes the depth is better. But is it long term depth? I'd say it isn't. It's bandaids to cover imperfections that will need to be replaced in short order that has used resources and made the team noticeably worse. wouldn't it be better to use those resources to better the team on a longer-term rather than bandaids? One thing about bandaids, they're pretty much useless after you use them.

    Fine if you want to say we'll punt on the 2017-2018 seasons while we reload, be honest about it. Tell the fans what you're doing but don't play pass the buck on to AA, just because some fans aren't savvy enough to see what you're doing. Own up to your own work.

    Isn't that what Cashman did last July. Now look at them. Yankee fans bought in because Cashman was honest with them. Do you think Blue Jay fans are any less enlightened? Be honest own your vision. Stop playing pass the buck.
    See that's where we cannot agree. I believe from the last two paragraphs you've bought into a completely fabricated issue. I have never heard or read any excuse making or passing the buck. When you have such passion and emotion on an issue it's very easy to feed the fire by taking things out of context or reading between the lines where there is nothing there. Show us the sources because as far as I can see the people with the pitchforks are relatively few and most were irrationally critical before they even arrived to do their jobs

    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  7. #52
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    Let's see, they swapped Saunders for Pearce/Carrera and Edwin for Morales, all the while having one of the best rotations in baseball. Clearly those are signs that they had no interest in winning this season!!

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    See that's where we cannot agree. I believe from the last two paragraphs you've bought into a completely fabricated issue. I have never heard or read any excuse making or passing the buck. When you have such passion and emotion on an issue it's very easy to feed the fire by taking things out of context or reading between the lines where there is nothing there. Show us the sources because as far as I can see the people with the pitchforks are relatively few and most were irrationally critical before they even arrived to do their jobs

    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk


    In an appearance on Jim Bowdenís radio show on MLB Network Radio, Toronto Blue Jays president and CEO Mark Shapiro discussed his reasons for letting David Price walk as a free agent, how the clubís diminished farm system played into his thinking when looking for upgrades and replacements, and talked about his thinking with the contracts of Josh Donaldson, Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion.

    https://www.todaysknuckleball.com/al...mments/http://

    This apparently did not sit well with his new boss, Mark Shapiro, whom the Jays hired to be their new team president. The report out there is that Shapiro "scolded" Anthopoulos in their lone meeting before his hiring for trading so many top prospects in 2015. Since we know that Anthopoulos turned down an extension from the Jays, and the report is he did not turn it down due to money, we can pretty easily put two and two together here.

    http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2015/10/...ki-david-price

    The team source, who was directly involved with Anthopoulosís contract negotiations, said the Blue Jays first offered him a one-year contract extension this summer.


    A second offer was made for two years, plus a mutual option to extend for two additional years.

    Itís unclear whether incoming Blue Jays president Mark Shapiro wanted Anthopoulos to remain with the team. During his only meeting with Anthopoulos and other team executives, Shapiro said he was concerned that the Jays had given away so many blue-chip prospects this season.

    That conversation has been confirmed by two sources.

    ďMark is a pretty direct guy and he was basically questioning giving up so many great prospects,Ē the team source said. ďHe basically was trying to point out Alex really was going for broke.Ē

    http://www.tsn.ca/jays-offered-antho...ource-1.384678

    ďIím not sure I could have been any more thoughtful,Ē Shapiro says. ďIím not sure I could have been any more culturally sensitive and aware. Iím not sure I could have embraced the place I was coming to any more. There were certainly maybe some things I did that didnít help to endear me to people. But people were looking for things to not like about me rather than things to like about me. I view those as circumstances. Itís the situation I walked into. Really, if you look at what happened, nothing was my choice. Nothing was about decisions I made. I was walking into a situation that dramatically changed from when I made the decision to come here to the time I started working here. The circumstances and situation were something that I didnít have control over, and that was something I had to manage through. Beyond this season, though, itís going to get tricky, with an aging roster, some significant contract obligations, a farm system that has been thoroughly strip-mined......Ē

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb...faced-critics/

    The only reason it wasnt a bigger deal is that Anthopoulos showed class. he knew outing Shapiro wouldnt help him wherever he went next so he bit his tongue. and moved on. The narrative here which the source stated Shapiro actually stated "ďHe basically was trying to point out Alex really was going for broke.'

    youve said it yourself JamieC. so you're buying onto Shapiro's self-serving narrative
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 05-06-2017 at 02:33 PM.

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    No, not a bad thing really. I enjoyed the 2 years as much as anyone. But there were consequences, and very few people then or now were/are able to accept that Anthopolous created both outcomes with his moves. He was quite lucky to get out when he did as it was great for his legacy.

    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
    I think most people are aware of the consequences and what happens when you trade your prospects. But that's what all teams go through when they trade their assets for a chance at a contender. We've seen it with the Yankees, Red Sox, etc. The tradeoffs were better off for the team when he made the moves.

  10. #55
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    So he wasn't happy that AA traded away virtually all of the team's minor league capital when he knew he probably wasn't coming back.

    That shouldn't be surprising, and virtually and new President wouldn't have been happy about that, and it still doesn't fit the narrative that Shapiro plans to "punt on the 2017-2018 seasons".

    Your narrative around this is exhausting.

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by mkcavy View Post
    So he wasn't happy that AA traded away virtually all of the team's minor league capital when he knew he probably wasn't coming back.

    That shouldn't be surprising, and virtually and new President wouldn't have been happy about that, and it still doesn't fit the narrative that Shapiro plans to "punt on the 2017-2018 seasons".

    Your narrative around this is exhausting.
    no, what do you call adding 13 players in their mid 30's to an already aging roster in less than 2 years?

    those are facts, that is undeniable

    Whats exhausting is You refuse to accept facts.

    did they or did they not continue to add age (in most cases even older than the players Anthopoulos acquired) to the roster

    you choose to bury your head in the sand but you cannot complain about the guy you replaced leaving you with an old team....if you go out and add even older players

    if shapiro added younger players I wouldnt say anything because then his actions fit his words, but so far the vast majority of his acquisitions are older than what he had..... thats a FACT

    at least JamieC made a valid point, generally if you iperate through free agency your stuck with older players, and he's right. absolutely he is. but then dont use free agency alone take chances on undervalued assets around baseball guys like Hanigar, Thames, Chris Carter, other teams did why cant we?

    Signing Bautista went 100 percent against his stated goals so why do it?
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 05-06-2017 at 02:42 PM.

  12. #57
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    Nothing you said proves that he is not trying to win this season or next.

  13. #58
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    Nov 2007
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    no it doesnt thats true, but then stop passing the buck onto AA

    admit that this was your decision and accept the congratulations if it works or the blame if it fails.
    you cant have it both ways... pick a path show some vision Like AA did. own your work.

  14. #59
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    Jul 2007
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    2,094
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey:31612986

    admit that this was your decision and accept the congratulations if it works or the blame if it fails.

    you cant have it both ways...

    pick a path show some vision Like AA did. own your work.
    +1

    This cowardly sleazy FO

  15. #60
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    Jan 2005
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    23,841
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    In an appearance on Jim Bowdenís radio show on MLB Network Radio, Toronto Blue Jays president and CEO Mark Shapiro discussed his reasons for letting David Price walk as a free agent, how the clubís diminished farm system played into his thinking when looking for upgrades and replacements, and talked about his thinking with the contracts of Josh Donaldson, Jose Bautista and Edwin Encarnacion.

    https://www.todaysknuckleball.com/al...mments/http://

    This apparently did not sit well with his new boss, Mark Shapiro, whom the Jays hired to be their new team president. The report out there is that Shapiro "scolded" Anthopoulos in their lone meeting before his hiring for trading so many top prospects in 2015. Since we know that Anthopoulos turned down an extension from the Jays, and the report is he did not turn it down due to money, we can pretty easily put two and two together here.

    http://www.sbnation.com/mlb/2015/10/...ki-david-price

    The team source, who was directly involved with Anthopoulosís contract negotiations, said the Blue Jays first offered him a one-year contract extension this summer.


    A second offer was made for two years, plus a mutual option to extend for two additional years.

    Itís unclear whether incoming Blue Jays president Mark Shapiro wanted Anthopoulos to remain with the team. During his only meeting with Anthopoulos and other team executives, Shapiro said he was concerned that the Jays had given away so many blue-chip prospects this season.

    That conversation has been confirmed by two sources.

    ďMark is a pretty direct guy and he was basically questioning giving up so many great prospects,Ē the team source said. ďHe basically was trying to point out Alex really was going for broke.Ē

    http://www.tsn.ca/jays-offered-antho...ource-1.384678

    ďIím not sure I could have been any more thoughtful,Ē Shapiro says. ďIím not sure I could have been any more culturally sensitive and aware. Iím not sure I could have embraced the place I was coming to any more. There were certainly maybe some things I did that didnít help to endear me to people. But people were looking for things to not like about me rather than things to like about me. I view those as circumstances. Itís the situation I walked into. Really, if you look at what happened, nothing was my choice. Nothing was about decisions I made. I was walking into a situation that dramatically changed from when I made the decision to come here to the time I started working here. The circumstances and situation were something that I didnít have control over, and that was something I had to manage through. Beyond this season, though, itís going to get tricky, with an aging roster, some significant contract obligations, a farm system that has been thoroughly strip-mined......Ē

    http://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/mlb...faced-critics/

    The only reason it wasnt a bigger deal is that Anthopoulos showed class. he knew outing Shapiro wouldnt help him wherever he went next so he bit his tongue. and moved on. The narrative here which the source stated Shapiro actually stated "ďHe basically was trying to point out Alex really was going for broke.'

    youve said it yourself JamieC. so you're buying onto Shapiro's self-serving narrative
    Lmao gosh Mike get real. I am buying no narrative, as I literally go out of my way to avoid junk journalism like those first two sources you provided. All you need in order to know Alex went for broke is common sense and a minimum 10 years or so of following the sport to give you a bit of context as to how often prospects change hands. Honestly Mike I cannot believe you would provide those 2 articles to back your point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

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