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  1. #31
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    Kendall Graveman is apparently touching 98 this year but he mostly throws just one pitch. Never saw that coming though.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    By this logic even the organization ranked dead last for the farm should feel confident because even they will tell you they are confident they have some real keepers among their lower level prospects. Everybody feels that way.

    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
    Sure there's always a certain level of confidence but as I mentioned, the timing is very important so I wouldn't really put a label on it.

    If they have a good number of stalwarts (especially if they have like 2-4 years of control), they can afford to wait on prospects a little long. If they can wait a little longer, they can use their upper level prospects (which are generally their top rated prospects) to shore up the MLB roster. Teams are willing to trade their upper level prospects if they have long term MLB regulars on the roster because you're less likely to need AAA prospects lingering around and can spare waiting on those lower level prospects.

    I mean I guess you can call it "emptying the farm" if you wanna simply look at the number of prospects you traded away, but if you don't need those prospects as much as the guy (who isn't in the position to make the same trades you made), so what?
    Last edited by Raps08-09 Champ; 05-04-2017 at 10:06 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by TO Rapz:31610049
    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    that's horseshit. he was consistent with his MO until 2015. using a surplus of prospects in 2012 when you are flush with them is not the same as emptying the tank in 2015. that's a lie you are telling yourself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    If he was confident in the new and lower level prospects he had at that time (that need like 4 years to develop), then he's not really emptying the tank, especially if you have multiple all stars under control for 2-4 years since the timeline works out well enough.
    This. Not to mention you consider what we did, "emptying the tank". I don't. We've added prospects that are better if not the same level during that same time line. Most seem to agree with my line of thinking in this thread in regards to AA. So I don't think I'd be lying to myself. On top of that, to add Price and Tulo, what big prospects did he give up? Norris and Hoffman. Okay. Lets see exactly what we gave up:

    - Daniel Norris
    - Matt Boyd
    - Miguel Castro
    - Jeff Hoffman
    - Jimmy Cordero

    Boyds a spot starter, probably an average pen arm at best. Castro's struggled mightily and looks destined to be a middle relief role. Was placed on waivers too I think. Norris is okay but has struggled at the MLB level and bounced between all 3 levels while struggling mightily with injuries. Hoffman we've yet to see but he seems legit as he's Colorado's top spec in the 1-3 range on their lists. All info can be found here:

    https://www.thestar.com/sports/bluej...als-doing.html
    Wow, AA really hedged his bets right.

    Look AA/LaCava groomed in-house

    - Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna, Pillar
    - traded Gose/Travis (still favourable deal so far)
    - Rule 5 tabbed Biagini

    The only sore pieces missed are:

    - Thor, who is hitting the shelves (not TJ, but still months out)
    - Yan Gomes, who is not hitting at all
    - Sam Dyson, recently lost Rangers closer duties, remaining in bullpen
    - Daniel Norris, reestablishing value in rotation
    - Jeff Hoffman, ready to hit the show anytime soon
    - Hechavarria, a #9 hitter/defensive SS whiz (which we have in-house Goins)
    - Henderson Alvarez, long long layoff due to attempt comeback now, in May
    - Jake Marisnick, 4th OF
    - Anthony Desclafani, on the shelf until July, shoulder woes
    - Miguel Castro, Dfa'd and landed in double A ball
    - Justin Nicolino/Matt Boyd, minors starter/swingman


    Pretty impressive haul of Dosh, Tulo/Reyes, Buerhle, Price, Revere, Estrada, Happ, Dickey, J.Johnson for a boatload of "key" specs who eventually become journeyman, or damaged goods.

    Of course 2x ALCS opportunities. Doesn't come often. Not with this FO regime anyways.

  4. #34
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    you hit a grand slam there Superfio

    unfortunately we'll never know what AA would have done, perhaps he would have let Edwin and Jose walk and restocked the farm with 3 1st rounders and signed Thames and other lesser known players looking for opportunity and surprised us by finding players like he had done before.

    The truth in what you wrote however is that in his trading of prospects he left the team with a favorable talent base. The fact is you cant sit on prospects. they are like any other resource they only realize their value when used. prospects need to be challenged and advanced to grow. if you dont do that they Stagnate and Regress. AA understood that so he advanced the team as a whole while opening up opportunity for the next generation of prospects.

    that symbiosis brought 2 appearances in the playoffs, that cannot be minimalized, on the whole AA's deals improved the product. I dont think you can say that for Shapiro-Atkins...I dont see a single acquisition on the major league roster that they've acquired that I expect to be blue Jays in 3 years with the exception of Biagini. and that doesnt bode well for the franchise.

    They took over a World Series caliber team and made it Older and Slower and tried to pass the buck onto AA. its that simple. This team as it stands now will watch its core lose value as they get older. true they can trade them but I for one have little faith in their ability to get maximum value for the core pieces that AA left them with. To me they are myopic in their vision, seeing only the draft as a way to build for the future. Thankfully they appear to be competent in that aspect, but building solely through the draft takes years, years that our present core doesnt have.

    The thing I really dont like about them is that they are dishonest. I could live with it if they said "hey we're gonna build with tha draft exclusively, it will be painful but when we're done this will be a Blue Jay team you can be proud of" but this passing the buck onto AA so that they can claim they are fixing the mess he left behind is Low and Dirty. That I cant abide by. I was raised, and I assume most of us were also, to take responsibility for our actions. AA never denied his bad deals and never threw anybody under the bus. he just went about his business doing his best to make the team better, and this 2 great playoff years are his legacy.

    in the end Shapiro-Atkins may eventually produce that Blue Jays team we can all be proud of, but I'll believe it when I see it, and till then I will hold on to my skepticism. To me, this whole throwing AA under the bus leaves a bad taste in my mouth. it says more about Shapiro-Atkins own lack of character than anything else

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by superfio View Post
    Wow, AA really hedged his bets right.

    Look AA/LaCava groomed in-house

    - Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna, Pillar
    - traded Gose/Travis (still favourable deal so far)
    - Rule 5 tabbed Biagini

    The only sore pieces missed are:

    - Thor, who is hitting the shelves (not TJ, but still months out)
    - Yan Gomes, who is not hitting at all
    - Sam Dyson, recently lost Rangers closer duties, remaining in bullpen
    - Daniel Norris, reestablishing value in rotation
    - Jeff Hoffman, ready to hit the show anytime soon
    - Hechavarria, a #9 hitter/defensive SS whiz (which we have in-house Goins)
    - Henderson Alvarez, long long layoff due to attempt comeback now, in May
    - Jake Marisnick, 4th OF
    - Anthony Desclafani, on the shelf until July, shoulder woes
    - Miguel Castro, Dfa'd and landed in double A ball
    - Justin Nicolino/Matt Boyd, minors starter/swingman


    Pretty impressive haul of Dosh, Tulo/Reyes, Buerhle, Price, Revere, Estrada, Happ, Dickey, J.Johnson for a boatload of "key" specs who eventually become journeyman, or damaged goods.

    Of course 2x ALCS opportunities. Doesn't come often. Not with this FO regime anyways.
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    you hit a grand slam there Superfio

    unfortunately we'll never know what AA would have done, perhaps he would have let Edwin and Jose walk and restocked the farm with 3 1st rounders and signed Thames and other lesser known players looking for opportunity and surprised us by finding players like he had done before.

    The truth in what you wrote however is that in his trading of prospects he left the team with a favorable talent base. The fact is you cant sit on prospects. they are like any other resource they only realize their value when used. prospects need to be challenged and advanced to grow. if you dont do that they Stagnate and Regress. AA understood that so he advanced the team as a whole while opening up opportunity for the next generation of prospects.

    that symbiosis brought 2 appearances in the playoffs, that cannot be minimalized, on the whole AA's deals improved the product. I dont think you can say that for Shapiro-Atkins...I dont see a single acquisition on the major league roster that they've acquired that I expect to be blue Jays in 3 years with the exception of Biagini. and that doesnt bode well for the franchise.

    They took over a World Series caliber team and made it Older and Slower and tried to pass the buck onto AA. its that simple. This team as it stands now will watch its core lose value as they get older. true they can trade them but I for one have little faith in their ability to get maximum value for the core pieces that AA left them with. To me they are myopic in their vision, seeing only the draft as a way to build for the future. Thankfully they appear to be competent in that aspect, but building solely through the draft takes years, years that our present core doesnt have.

    The thing I really dont like about them is that they are dishonest. I could live with it if they said "hey we're gonna build with tha draft exclusively, it will be painful but when we're done this will be a Blue Jay team you can be proud of" but this passing the buck onto AA so that they can claim they are fixing the mess he left behind is Low and Dirty. That I cant abide by. I was raised, and I assume most of us were also, to take responsibility for our actions. AA never denied his bad deals and never threw anybody under the bus. he just went about his business doing his best to make the team better, and this 2 great playoff years are his legacy.

    in the end Shapiro-Atkins may eventually produce that Blue Jays team we can all be proud of, but I'll believe it when I see it, and till then I will hold on to my skepticism. To me, this whole throwing AA under the bus leaves a bad taste in my mouth. it says more about Shapiro-Atkins own lack of character than anything else
    Guys, enough. We're lying to ourselves.

  6. #36
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    I heard AA would have traded for Trout, Harper and Correa if he had stuck around too..........

  7. #37
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    ^ no, the lie is the complete denial that he obliterated his system in his final year on the job. instead of rationalizing it, which is very easy to do when you are a fan of the home team, just look at it objectively. there have been very few GM's that have ever dealt as many prospects as AA did in his last 2 years on the job. it's not criticism, it's fact. when you acknowledge it as fact it stops having to be so damn personal with you guys.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  8. #38
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    Teams trade high level prospects to try and build a contender all the time...

    It isnt a 1 label fits all. He wans presented with the opportunity to trade for Donaldson, Tulo and Price in his last year and took it. I dont see the big deal. You talk about destroying the farmfor MVPamd Cy Young players like ots a bad thing.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by TRIUMPHATOR View Post
    If I may....Wasn't that the process he talked about?

    Draft and develop talent, use them as capital (because quite frankly, the misses far outweigh the hits). Bring in proven players because Toronto can afford a top 5-10 payroll....then continue the trend on the lower levels while your major league team competes.

    I know kw I'm making it sound simple, but the Cards and Giants seem to do it just fine. Atlanta was that team in the 90's but failed to actually become a dynasty.
    I don't believe that was originally supposed to be the process, but evolved into it. Which is fine.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    Teams trade high level prospects to try and build a contender all the time...

    It isnt a 1 label fits all. He wans presented with the opportunity to trade for Donaldson, Tulo and Price in his last year and took it. I dont see the big deal. You talk about destroying the farmfor MVPamd Cy Young players like ots a bad thing.
    exactly, he saw the Yankees were in a down period and we had a window and went for it....its not like this team had been winning before that either, 21 years is a long time....

    when you play In a division with the big boys, the Boston's and New York's of this world, you pick your spots to go for it. and if the owners had kept Price and Encarnacion this would still be a World Series caliber team. but alas ownership didnt agree.

    I seriously dont get why anyone has an issue with what AA did. I'd like to ask Shapiro what was 21 years not enough? I personally think he was just giving himself an excuse for not being able to make the team better. looking at what he's done sInce he's been here, he obviously needed one.....
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 05-05-2017 at 07:03 PM.

  11. #41
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    Deals you would take back

    I see both sides of the AA argument. He went hard, and we wanted it.

    He did trade a ton of prospects. And while we can debate about the value of those prospects now, when he moved them they had a lot of currency attached to them, especially Norris, Castro and Hoffman, among others.

    The one thing that has always pained me is how AA appeared to have the mindset that he was gone after 2015 for a couple years. The Martin contract probably highlights that. It didn't kick in to $20M until after his contract expired.

    Do I think he spent a lot of the Jays prospect capital in 2015? Absolutely. Was it too much? Arguably for a man who essentially knew he wasn't coming back. Do I care? Honestly, no. We had two playoff runs, probably should have made the WS both seasons but fell short.

    He was aggressive when the rabid fan base wanted him to be while he had one foot out the door. So none of this should surprise a soul.

  12. #42
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    I don't think he spent too much. Relative to what we had, sure you can try to say that, but relative to the value he got back, he got 3 great deals (steals really), especially when he really just traded 3 top 100 prospects and the rest being questionable prospects.

  13. #43
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    Deals you would take back

    They are questionable now. They weren't at the time.

    And that's the key to prospect currency.

    With the exception of the Donaldson deal, which even at the time looked like a steal, he spent a lot to get a lot.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    Teams trade high level prospects to try and build a contender all the time...

    It isnt a 1 label fits all. He wans presented with the opportunity to trade for Donaldson, Tulo and Price in his last year and took it. I dont see the big deal. You talk about destroying the farmfor MVPamd Cy Young players like ots a bad thing.
    No, not a bad thing really. I enjoyed the 2 years as much as anyone. But there were consequences, and very few people then or now were/are able to accept that Anthopolous created both outcomes with his moves. He was quite lucky to get out when he did as it was great for his legacy.

    Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk
    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 05-05-2017 at 11:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  15. #45
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    AA did his job. He watched his team stampede into 2 ALCS from a distance. Heck of a winning run after 22 years of mediocrity.

    His successor? Doing his job too, spoiling a championship calibre team into ground zero. Rinse and. Repeating. Its the Cleveland fiasco all over again

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