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  1. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by TRIUMPHATOR View Post
    I believe Shapkins is an industry standard though. I know I've heard it on more than one braodcast. They are attached at the hip.
    Just a shameless plug...but I believe I was the first on this forum to use the term Shapkins...and I never heard it on any broadcast or read that term anywhere It's the only positive I have to lean on re: the Jays right now...so please let me have this recognition!

  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Rochesta View Post
    Why? They're currently being proven right for not going all in on the 2017 version of AA's core.
    I would have had no problem if rebuild was the direction...and Shapkins came out and communicated that in the offseason. Sure it would have sucked, but I think we all saw that unless they spent major cash this past winter, that there were just too many holes to fill. The past 2 ALCS's showed are far away we were from being a WS team. Too many BP holes, and no legit lefty options...too right-handed...too slow...too old...no depth. So unless they were gonna bump payroll up to 180+ million, now was the time to thank the fans and apologize that we didn't get to where we wanted...and announce the re-load. It was time to part ways with Gibby & Co and either bring in a proven leader, or install a bright young AA or AAA coach to rise with a younger core.

    However, these clowns are terrible at PR, and are doing the same thing Shapiro did in Cleveland when he was the GM...alienating a fan base and keeping his cards close to his manipulative heart. Tribe fans are chirping all over the different forums about "see...told you so..." They couldn't get rid of him quick enough. EVERYTHING good about that franchise happened AFTER Shapiro was removed from on-field baseball decisions, and after Antoinetti came on board as the GM. To make matters worse, they extend Gibby for 2 years when the guy couldn't win big with a great roster in '15 or a good roster in '16...what made anyone thing he could win with an average roster in '17?

    The Gibby decision...the Smoak extension...the JD arbitration fiasco...the EE free agent fiasco...the lack of foresight with the BP...the hiring of Wedge to a blind desk job for 'old times sakes'...the belief Pearce was our starting LF option. There's more than enough reason to cut ties with Shapkins...we don't need another 2-3 seasons of BS & rhetoric from these suits.

  3. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    How are they being proved right? When they caused this.... they signed Pearce, they Signed Bautista too, don't forget. They signed Howell to replace Cecil. They added Upton and added Liriano And Coghlan and gave Smoak his contract. And none of their signings are spring chickens.

    For all we know they brought this on. At least AA's crew were winning. 1 lousy GW homer doesn't make Morales a good signing. Even Salty is an aging vet. Let's not kid ourselves... everyone they've added has been dead weight who added to the pressure on Josh and Tulo. Name even one young guy they've added

    Stupiro Napkins brought this on. It's their narrative that THEY created that Now blames AA. Don't forget his squad was winning. The man was right to leave when he did. He saw right away that were going to make him a scapegoat for their own lack of vision.

    The blame game belongs on Stupiro Napkins. Don't be fooled by their self-proclaimed narrative. They have every reason to try and distance themselves from the mess they created. Don't let them.
    I can't stand Shapkins, but let's not pretend AA was a Theo Epstein either! AA had a dismall track record or success here. Sure he nabbed JD with a steal deal. He got lucky with EE & JB (although, wasn't Joey from the JP days?). He signed Martin for about 5 million more than he needed to. He made a good deal with Estrada for Lind, but was Marco's turnaround more to do with Walker helping him with his change-up and location? Let's not forget the dumpster diving waiver wire pickings AA was famous for...and all we need to say is Noah....

    So as much as AA helped produce playoff baseball, I think we all know that at the time of the deadline deals, he already knew he was likely leaving (Shapiro was hired just before the deadline I believe...and Rogers told AA in July of '15 that he would not be the team president)...so tossing out a bunch of specs for Tulo, Price, Revere was not genius. It's not like he fleeced those teams. He knew he was gone after the season, so he made some great moves for the short-term that didn't take any balls to make...he was playing with house money. What GM wouldn't have made those kinds of deals if they knew they really weren't ever gonna have to be held accountable?

    AA gave us 3 months of exciting baseball...plus the core of last year's team to get excited about with the hype from the '15 squad. I don't blame him...I'm glad we went for it in '15, because had he still be tied to the Rogers corporate mandate, we probably would have stood pat and finished '15 in 4th place!
    Last edited by passengershawn; 04-18-2017 at 10:48 AM.

  4. #49
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    The AA vs Atkins/Shapiro topic is a joke. Its not close. AA is the best GM in our history by far. Everyone knows how I feel about him, I wasnt around for the early 90s years, so Im counter 1995 onwards when I say in our history lol.

    But his pros far outweighd the mistakes he made. At the end of the day, baseball is about winning a world series. And I still remember from day 1, AAs vision was to have an all star at each position. He said this when he first took over and I called him crazy. As he left his tenure, his statement was nearly true.

    He inherited JPs mess.

    He left us with Josh Donaldson an MVP player, Troy Tulowitzki a premium two way player who is still a very good two way player. Hes still well above average. Edwin, Jose, two franchise icons. All our young pitching talent... the riches with Syndegaard, Sanchez, Stroman, etc. I can go on and on. I will never be mad about the Dickey deal because the man represents what the game is about, having a vision to go big. He put together a star studded powerhouse in a division where the Yankees and Red Sox used to put out lineups like ours with their massive salaries.

    Prime Blue Jays offensive lineup under Anthopolous was absolutely nuts. The talent level he raised the bar to, he turned this franchise around honestly.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    How are they being proved right? When they caused this.... they signed Pearce, they Signed Bautista too, don't forget. They signed Howell to replace Cecil. They added Upton and added Liriano And Coghlan and gave Smoak his contract. And none of their signings are spring chickens.

    For all we know they brought this on. At least AA's crew were winning. 1 lousy GW homer doesn't make Morales a good signing. Even Salty is an aging vet. Let's not kid ourselves... everyone they've added has been dead weight who added to the pressure on Josh and Tulo. Name even one young guy they've added

    Stupiro Napkins brought this on. It's their narrative that THEY created that Now blames AA. Don't forget his squad was winning. The man was right to leave when he did. He saw right away that were going to make him a scapegoat for their own lack of vision.

    The blame game belongs on Stupiro Napkins. Don't be fooled by their self-proclaimed narrative. They have every reason to try and distance themselves from the mess they created. Don't let them.
    That's ridiculous imo. This team had nowhere to go but down when Anthopolous left. 2015 was lightning in a bottle. What remained was a very old team, escalating salaries and depleted minor league capital.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  6. #51
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    My point exactly rapz, and though Ricciardi was Gm, for the Bautista deal both Law and Ricciardi admit that AA was the driving force for the acquisition.

    AS wasn't perfect but he did have vision. He wanted Tulo when Ricciardi went Romero and he wasn't afraid to act.

    That's all you want in a Gm. A guy with a vision and a clear direction. And the cojones to act when the opportunity is there.

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    the bad moves were adding age to the team, they shopped in the bargain bin and made an Aging team older, as good of a hitter as Morales is he ties up the DH so players cant rest without severely hurting the batting order. Youre the #1 anti Gibby guy and if anyone knows he's not a master in putting players in a position to succeed its you bomber. The players they added makes Gibby have to make all the right calls, and we both know they've set him up to fail.

    You of all people should know this. Honestly buddy they pitched you a meatball with the bases loaded, I expected you to hit this one straight out if the park....I'm frankly very surprised you didnt see this a mile away.

    No real backup at SS and 3B, a backup catcher who cant catch or throw out runners.. A great 5 man Starting Staff with absolutely no depth behind it.and a Starting outfield that wont drive in 200 runs. this team is gonna play Tulo Josh and Martin into the ground
    when you are running on borrowed time with an old team the only thing to do is add veterans and make short term commitments. what else are you going to do? manufacture young studs out of your ***? good young talent almost never hits free-agency.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    when you are running on borrowed time with an old team the only thing to do is add veterans and make short term commitments. what else are you going to do? manufacture young studs out of your ***? good young talent almost never hits free-agency.
    was it AA's fault they refused to resign Price?

    was it AA's fault that in 2 years Stupiro Napkins Added 13 players 32 and older? lets not kid ourselves JamieC, while AA was adding 27 to 31 year olds in Price, Edwin, JD, Tulo, Shapiro added 13 players aged 32 and older not one of whom had the credentials of Price, Edwin, JD, or Tulo.

    yes the guys AA got were aging, but Shapiro added significant Age to the team, they've been here for 2 years. and all they've added is age to the team. as Triumphator has so eloquently stated how long do you blame AA for the team getting older when the guys who replaced him have ONLY ADDED TO THE AGE ON THE TEAM

    they chose not to re-sign Price they added 34 year olds Happ and Pearce 33 year olds Liriano, Morales, 36 year old Bautista 33 year old Howell and Smith, 40 year old Grilli, 39 year old Benoit, 32 year old Upton. AA left 2 years ago. why is it his fault this team got old when this is all that the new guys added.

    if Tulo Martin JD and Price Sanchez and Osuna were the core of this team as it was when Shapiro replaced AA, and then they added younger guys to the mix we'd be just fine thank you, but no Shapiro added even older guys. how is that on AA.?

    didnt the Yankees take on Castro and Gregorius when their prior teams gave up on them? are you saying we couldnt take on young reclamation projects like they did, didnt the Orioles take on Mark Trumbo after he flamed out in Arizona. theres always young guys that teams give up on when they decide a player isnt what they thought he was, Nick Franklin anyone, Matt Adams of the Cardinals, Jedd Goryko of the Padres, there are always young guys out there that need a new start.....all it takes is good scouting

    instead shapiro added even older vets thats on him not AA. The biggest proof of that is giving Boston Price for nothing, you went from having your own proven Stud, to handing them to your biggest rival, for nothing
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 04-18-2017 at 05:05 PM.

  9. #54
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    Not signing David Price to a 30 M/yr contract was a no brainer

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by passengershawn View Post
    Just a shameless plug...but I believe I was the first on this forum to use the term Shapkins...and I never heard it on any broadcast or read that term anywhere It's the only positive I have to lean on re: the Jays right now...so please let me have this recognition!
    All the credit goes to Shawn. I was banging his mom last night and she told me he has used that term for years. You go Shawn!
    Beeston: "we should be able to support a $140-$150 million payroll and that's the direction that we're headed."
    1.27.11

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    Not signing David Price to a 30 M/yr contract was a no brainer
    and giving 11 m to Morales and 17M to Bautista and 6M to Pearce And 5 to Upton was Smart? theres 39M right there and they could have signed Price for less than 31M before free agency. how can you complain about Age when everyone they signed with the money the could have used to keep Price, was considerably older than Price.....

    I thought you wanted to get younger Kenny, make up your mind

    its that kind of blatant Hipocracy that makes me wonder if your even paying attention to what they are actually doing. get your story straight..,

    and its not like the wont need to replace Morales, Bautista, Upton, and Pearce at even higher prices, at least you would have Price locked in. They obviously had the money, they just chose to spend it on much older and objectively Worse players

    I repeat they brought on this Age crisis. they chose to add these older players.... AA was long gone when they made these choices, They have every reason to sell you their false narrative, you bought it, hook line and sinker, I didnt. I actually own a calender. I know when Stupiro Napkins took over.
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 04-18-2017 at 06:25 PM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    That's ridiculous imo. This team had nowhere to go but down when Anthopolous left. 2015 was lightning in a bottle. What remained was a very old team, escalating salaries and depleted minor league capital.
    and factually thats wrong, when AA left the Yankees were the oldest team in baseball with the depleted System. look at them now, While Cashman was making the hard Choices, the guys in toronto were adding every old retread they could find

    if they didnt like what AA left them with, why didnt they do what cashman did? instead they doubled down on old players and started the false Narrative that the team is all AA's fault.....

    AA left because he saw very clearly what was going on, he saw that they were setting him up to be the Scapegoat. and he decided he wanted no part of it.... Im just surprised so many smart fans fell for it

    Jacoby Ellsbury CF
    Brett Gardner LF
    Carlos Beltran RF
    Mark Teixeira 1B
    Brian McCann C
    Chase Headley 3B
    Alex Rodriguez DH
    Stephen Drew 2B
    Didi Gregorius SS

    That was their lineup when AA left Toronto, Old Slow and Decrepit, in 2 years the same 2 that Stupiro Napkins have been here the Yankees have rebuilt all the while being competitive. Stupiro Napkins on the other hand just added age everywhere they could....

    they could have done exactly what Cashman did if they wanted, Stupiro Napkins chose not to
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 04-18-2017 at 07:24 PM.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    and giving 11 m to Morales and 17M to Bautista and 6M to Pearce And 5 to Upton was Smart? theres 39M right there and they could have signed Price for less than 31M before free agency. how can you complain about Age when everyone they signed with the money the could have used to keep Price, was considerably older than Price.....

    I thought you wanted to get younger Kenny, make up your mind

    its that kind of blatant Hipocracy that makes me wonder if your even paying attention to what they are actually doing. get your story straight..
    Aren't you the complaining about signing people on the wrong side of 30? Talk about being a hypocrite. But even if we throw that arbitrary age out the window how can advocate for signing a guy to an obscene contract and who hasn't pitched yet this year, still hasn't thrown a breaking ball and publicly said that if he was younger (probably under your arbitrarily set age of 30) that he would have gotten Tommy John. This is the same guy who has proven time and again that he can't pitch in the playoffs. This is the guy YOU wanted them to sign? Something tells me if they did sign them you would be the first one up on your pretty little soap box denouncing the deal. Who's the hypocrite, again?

    So basically we don't have Bautista/Morales/Pearce but we have a (potentially seriously) injured pitcher at 30+ million a year and no RF, DH or LF/1B platoon player. How in the sweet **** can you even attempt to justify this.

    Once again not signing Price is the biggest no brain decision this FO has made. You not seeing that is, well, understandable.

  14. #59
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    Mikes reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.

  15. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    Mikes reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.
    no yours does, Ive never complained about age not once.

    You have. all Ive done is show you guys who have complained about age, Who added it

    you have no comprehension At All

    which is why you are a complete and utter fool

    read it again and see have I not been comparing who AA added to who Stupiro Napkins Added,

    If they didnt want to sign Price fine, but dont then go out and sign 13 considerably older guys and then complain about age on your roster

    ever since they took over almost every player they've added is in his mid 30's and yet all they do is complain AA left them old with an empty cupboard

    if that was true why did they do what they did, and not do what Brian Cashman did? they could have had an extra 1st round draft choice but instead they decided to sign Bautista, nobody held a gun to their head. im just pointing out that they chose to do as they did. AA had nothing to do with it

    thats why you have no comprehension other people fully get what I've said, you on the other hand missed it entirely.

    the point put as plainly as possible is if they really felt AA left them high and dry, fine, then sell off get prospects and restock the cupboard that would have been perfectly reasonable and we'd judge them on how they did.

    but dont add 13 mid 30's players and give up draft choices for 36 year old players and then complain your old

    choose a direction and own it. take responsibility for your own choices
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 04-18-2017 at 07:45 PM.

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