Like us on Facebook


Follow us on Twitter





Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 59
  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,204

    Trading Butler = Blueprint of 90s Bulls

    Caveat: I apologize for how long the post is, but not really. Read it. Or don't.

    Everyone likes to re-imagine history in that MJ made this franchise historically great overnight, and simply “lucking” into him developing into the GOAT as a #3 pick in a draft. There were quite a few other moves that followed years of MJ's development (and a lost season d/t injury). However, the blueprint to replicating the 1990s Bulls' success is very obtainable; however, only in the absence of Jimmy Butler. I think we can all agree that Butler can be 'the Pippen', but isn’t likely to be 'the MJ'. At the very least, getting Butler his Pippen is significantly more difficult in today's NBA and as the Bulls are constructed.

    Re-examine:
    - Michael Jordan. Drafted in 1984 w/ Pick #3.
    - Scottie Pippen. Traded up in 1987 draft (#8 and future 1st rounder) to be picked at #5.
    - Horace Grant. Drafted 1987 at #10 w/their own pick.
    - BJ Armstrong. Re-obtained draft rights from Pippen trade before 1989 draft for: Brad Sellers.

    Now, for six years prior to becoming the Bulls team that we all still hold onto today:
    1984/1985, Year 1: 38-44. Lost 1-3 to Bucks in 1st round.
    1985/1986, Year 2: 30-52. Swept by Celtics in 1st round
    1986/1987, Year 3: 40-42. Swept by Celtics in 1st round.
    1987/1988, Year 4: 50-32. Lost 1-4 to Pistons in Eastern Semi-Finals.
    1988/1989, Year 5: 47-35. Lost 2-4 to Pistons in Eastern Finals.
    1989/1990, Year 6: 55-27. Lost 3-4 to Pistons in Eastern Finals.

    In the half of a decade of prime drafting here, does anyone realize the Bulls whiffed much more significantly and often than not?

    1985 draft. After Jordan’s first year and a quick first round exit. Bulls draft Keith Lee with the #11 pick. Imagine if they ‘got it right’ and instead drafted Joe Dumars (#18) or Terry Porter (#24)? Or just imagine, if they hit back-to-back draft homeruns and drafted…Karl Malone (#13).

    1986 draft. Not a very historical great class, but Brad Sellers (#9) was drafted ahead of Dell Curry (#15), Arvydas Sabonis for the first of many times (#24), Mark Price (#25), Dennis Rodman (#27), Nate McMillan (#30), Jeff Hornacek (#46), and RIP Drazen Petrovic (#60).

    1987 draft. Bulls absolutely owned this draft (Pippen/Grant). But guess what? Second and third order effects. Had Bulls drafted Malone in 1985 and/or Rodman in 1986, might not have looked at Grant (#10) and instead looked more closely at getting Reggie Miller (#11).

    1988 draft. Will Perdue at #11. While an ‘important’ big to the first 3 titles, it is hard to imagine the Bulls taking anyone but a center in this draft (already a smaller team a/o the revisionist history team annotated above). Maybe a PG. Other options would have been Dan Majerle (#14), Rod Strickland (#19), Vinny Del Negro (#29), Grant Long (#33), Vernon Maxwell (#47), Steve Kerr (#50) or Anthony Mason (#53).

    1989 draft. Most people may not remember, but the Bulls drafted THREE times in the Top 20 in this draft. Stacey King (#6), BJ Armstrong (#18) and Jeff Sanders (#20). Passed up? Nick Anderson (#11), Mookie Blaylock (#12), Tim Hardaway (#14), Dana Barros (#16), Shawn Kemp (#17), Vlade Divac (#26) and Cliff Robinson (#36).

    Bottom Line? This franchise ****ed up every year (except maybe not 1987) after they drafted Jordan in 1984. Sound familiar? (see: Derrick Rose). Because they screwed up badly in the early 2000s, they refuse to go that route today? I just pointed out that they are equally as terrible talent evaluators then as they were 15-20 years ago. The early 2000s stung hard, because a) it was directly after 6 championships and putting the Bulls on the map, and b) it failed miserably. We are now almost two decades removed from glory. How many Bulls "fans" today are because of Jordan vs. the product they've seen in their lifetime? Same for corporate sponsors. Time to hit the reset button. Time to stop living in the past and basking in profits and memories from the previous millennium.

    Long-windedness coming to an end soon…

    1. Trade Butler for <insert who gives a crap> players, plus those 2017 and 2018 Net picks.
    2. 1984 Draft, Pick #3 becomes: 2017 Draft, Pick #1-4 (via Nets). The ‘new Jordan’
    3. 1987 Draft, Pick #5 becomes: 2018 Draft, Pick #1-4 (via Nets). The ‘new Pippen’
    4. 1987 Draft, Pick #10 becomes: 2018 Draft, Lottery pick (Bulls own pick). The ‘new Grant’
    5. 1989 Draft, Pick #18 becomes 2017/2018, late 1st round pick. (Sellers = Lopez).

    Instead of 3 years before Jordan gets his Batmen (Pippen/Grant) plus another 2 years for their development, we’d have our "new trio" together after one year. Plus, add in the ‘new Armstrong’ in the same time frame, and you've compressed the quartet together from six years down to two. What the current Bulls have that the 1980s Bulls didn't have, is a couple of young players for hope/possibility (Valentine, Payne, Grant, Portis) that can develop alongside them and see if they can stick it out to be a value-added supporting cast.

    What are everyone else's thoughts? I realize this is another "trade Butler or not" type of thread, but it should be a real discussion and a dedicated thread vs. being a buried blurb or two w/in a trade deadline thread (which has passed and is a defunct point now).

    To Butler or Not to Butler: that should be the absolute focal point of this franchise.
    Last edited by pentel1980; 03-01-2017 at 06:58 AM.
    Wenn Sie dies lesen durch elektronische Übersetzung, Sie sind jetzt noch lahm als Sie waren als Sie zum ersten Mal las und verstand es nicht.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    17,918
    I see what you're saying. I still don't think Ainge is willing to give up both the 2017 and 2018 picks though.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    35,238
    I agree with a lot of that, and I hope the Bulls are serious in trading Butler come draft time



  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    6,325
    "Not to Butler".

    I was all in for building around Jimmy when the season begun but that was because i was hoping that Niko and Doug would be able to finally become consistent 3pt shooters and with the addition of Rondo, Lopez and Wade we would have an well balanced roster. They didn't. Not entirely their fault.

    Jimmy is a good player but i don´t see a team winning with him as the primary scorer and with the low spacing we have.

    I also have an impression that he is not a good leader. I see more and more the "follow me (leader)" than the "i will follow you" type of leadership.

    As for talent wise, although he is our best 2-way player (and one of the best in the league), offensively my opinion is that Wade is more talented than him.... but he is 35. He wont be part of the mid-future.

    We also have a leadership problem in the head coach. God, i cant believe i ever said "its time for Thibs to go". When we played in 10-11 we also had a severe spacing problem. Rose-Bogans-Deng-Boozer-Noah and although you can discuss that we had shooting coming from the bench, we dint have what we have now and always wished: 2 stars on the starting lineup. The thing is that back then, there was a strong leadership and commitment to the team.

    But past is past, and we have to look at what we have now. Going back where the post started, if Boston were to offer both Brooklyn picks, i would trade Jimmy. Than we would cross our fingers and hope GARPAX pick some impact players, you hope Valentine becomes efficient, you resign Felicio (the guy is really good) and retool in 2018/2019. Dont count on Portis... i dont much there...

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Posts
    28,939
    Quote Originally Posted by O_Touro View Post
    "Not to Butler".

    I was all in for building around Jimmy when the season begun but that was because i was hoping that Niko and Doug would be able to finally become consistent 3pt shooters and with the addition of Rondo, Lopez and Wade we would have an well balanced roster. They didn't. Not entirely their fault.

    Jimmy is a good player but i don´t see a team winning with him as the primary scorer and with the low spacing we have.

    I also have an impression that he is not a good leader. I see more and more the "follow me (leader)" than the "i will follow you" type of leadership.

    As for talent wise, although he is our best 2-way player (and one of the best in the league), offensively my opinion is that Wade is more talented than him.... but he is 35. He wont be part of the mid-future.

    We also have a leadership problem in the head coach. God, i cant believe i ever said "its time for Thibs to go". When we played in 10-11 we also had a severe spacing problem. Rose-Bogans-Deng-Boozer-Noah and although you can discuss that we had shooting coming from the bench, we dint have what we have now and always wished: 2 stars on the starting lineup. The thing is that back then, there was a strong leadership and commitment to the team.

    But past is past, and we have to look at what we have now. Going back where the post started, if Boston were to offer both Brooklyn picks, i would trade Jimmy. Than we would cross our fingers and hope GARPAX pick some impact players, you hope Valentine becomes efficient, you resign Felicio (the guy is really good) and retool in 2018/2019. Dont count on Portis... i dont much there...
    It all starts from the top. Dumb and dumber can't get their heads out of their ***

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,204
    Quote Originally Posted by KG2TB View Post
    I see what you're saying. I still don't think Ainge is willing to give up both the 2017 and 2018 picks though.
    Maybe yes, maybe no. Maybe he revisits idea based on how playoffs end up shaking out. Drum up interest from the Lakers. Somebody with high picks and top shelf young talent.

    I'd prefer to build with a Fultz and (2018) Ayton or Porter as corner pieces instead of trying to be sold a bill of goods that what they Bulls have in young players are more than supporting talent.

    The message is to just not rest on glory from last century.
    Last edited by pentel1980; 03-02-2017 at 01:27 PM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,204
    O_Touro: being in the business of leadership, one can definitely tell that it is lacking from the top down in the Chi organization.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    CHICAGO
    Posts
    1,584
    That 90's bulls team will never be replicated... how many #3 picks have we had since Jordan's 84 pick? How many jordans have we had??? 0.

    Trading Butler for a "risk" not worth it imo...
    Quote Originally Posted by metsbulls1025 View Post
    (Topic: Pat Riley)Yeah snorting coke off of Lebron James thigh obviously makes you crazy.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    35,238
    Quote Originally Posted by vdv36 View Post
    That 90's bulls team will never be replicated... how many #3 picks have we had since Jordan's 84 pick? How many jordans have we had??? 0.

    Trading Butler for a "risk" not worth it imo...
    The point of the thread is not to replicate the 90s Bulls, but to go about building a championship caliber team like how they did it (and seemingly most teams ever)

    Keeping Butler means we plateau as a 2nd round exit. That's not worth anything



  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    HCA (Homecourt Advantage)
    Posts
    66,513
    You don't worry about building a dynasty you worry about just getting a title. Keeping Butler is the best bet, but maybe we can get a KAT or AD here to go with him.
    "Talent wins games, but teamwork and intelligence wins championships."
    - Michael Jordan

    Thanks MJ-Bulls for the picture.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    35,238
    Quote Originally Posted by JordansBulls View Post
    You don't worry about building a dynasty you worry about just getting a title. Keeping Butler is the best bet, but maybe we can get a KAT or AD here to go with him.
    No it is not. Anthony Davis isn't a free agent until the summer of 2021. Even if he were to leave, Butler will turn 32 the following season. Karl-Anthony Towns is staying in Minnesota until summer of 2023 at the earliest due to CBA Bird-Rights rules - at hat point Butler will be turning 34 the following season.



  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,204
    Quote Originally Posted by JordansBulls View Post
    You don't worry about building a dynasty you worry about just getting a title. Keeping Butler is the best bet, but maybe we can get a KAT or AD here to go with him.
    You worry about building a consistent product that is engineered with purpose vs. being slapped together after you've lost the instructions.
    Wenn Sie dies lesen durch elektronische Übersetzung, Sie sind jetzt noch lahm als Sie waren als Sie zum ersten Mal las und verstand es nicht.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    8,847
    Quote Originally Posted by Shammyguy3 View Post
    The point of the thread is not to replicate the 90s Bulls, but to go about building a championship caliber team like how they did it (and seemingly most teams ever)

    Keeping Butler means we plateau as a 2nd round exit. That's not worth anything
    I don't know. The Rockets for like two or three years were a completely mediocre team. Then they signed Harden and were still a .500 team. Then they signed Howard and it all came together and they were legit contenders for a few years with him. Last season they were mediocre again and then this off season they've built a pretty good team that is probably a legit contender. To me, you bank on proven results and build around it.

    The NBA is all about taking advantage of opportunities (and frankly, getting lucky). The Heat with young Wade and Shaq were built like that. Obviously the Heat with LeBron, Wade and Bosh were built like that. The Cavs are built like that right now. The Mavericks in 2011 were built like that. The recent Celtics contenders/championship team were built like that. The most recent Lakers championships were built like that. In fact, 8 out of the last 11 championships were in that mold. The exceptions to that are the Spurs and the Warriors who have mostly built through the draft.
    Last edited by Mamba42; 03-03-2017 at 10:50 AM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2011
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    1,204
    Any champion "built" around LeBron is the absolute exception to the rule. It's the equivalent of Jordan leaving to go to any of the teams those Bulls beat up in the Finals. Of course they would have won instead of the Bulls.

    LA has had, and will continue to have, the lure and draw of Hollywood and the gorgeous SoCal weather and lifestyle. Chicago most definitely will never have that. LA will always draw premiere free agents; Chicago will not.

    The 2008 Celtics were the originator of the "let's team up" cop out philosophy. By all means, if you see a HOFer and arguably Top 3 PF ever, and another HOFer and arguably the best 3P shooter of all time, that the Bulls can acquire for assets...that they clearly don't have...I'm willing to listen to building that way.

    Howard's Rockets were: bounced in the 1st round, smoked in the WC Finals and then smoked in the 1st round. If the ceiling and pinnacle of desired prowess is a brief and embarrassing conference finals appearance, goal achieved.

    If Chicago were a destination the best players wanted to go to, then I'd agree with the "star power approach." Unfortunately, Chicago is not.
    Wenn Sie dies lesen durch elektronische Übersetzung, Sie sind jetzt noch lahm als Sie waren als Sie zum ersten Mal las und verstand es nicht.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Posts
    6,325
    I like Jimmy and although i believe he has to improve as a leader, he is a tremendous player on both ends. That is why i mentioned i would prefer to trade him if both BKN picks were involved. Not one (1).

    With that, we would enter on a total rebuilt and we would move forward with Grant, Denzel, Zipster, Portis, Felicio, plus the 2 BKN picks and 2 picks of our own in which the second one would surely be a top 10 pick.

    Grant and Zipster are solid, Denzel has potential to be a starter, Portis is really a question mark to me and Felicio is already a good Center but he need to improve defensively. There is potential.

    Than with the development of this players we might attract a few FA in 2019/20 to add some quality and experience to the roster.


    If BOS doesn't want to give both picks, you keep Butler, maybe Wade, retool this year and retool the year after with players that fits his game (shooting the 3, being aggressive defensively), plus our picks this year and the year after. I´m not sure we can be champions but we can become a TOP 3 in the east in 2019/20.


    Both scenarios leave lots of "If´s" but in both of them there is 3 guys i know i do not want to see. Garpax and Fred. Leadership is needed. Like someone said, from top to bottom. To lead you have to put everyone on board with the team goal and strategy. To lead you have to an example instead of demand the leading part. To be a leading coach you actually have to call the shots. Without that you will always be one step behind

Page 1 of 4 123 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •