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Thread: Turnovers

  1. #1
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    Turnovers

    1. James Harden HOU 334
    2. Russell Westbrook OKC 304
    3. John Wall WAS 215
    4. LeBron James CLE 212
    5. DeMarcus Cousins SAC 198
    6. Eric Bledsoe PHO 175
    7. Dennis Schroder ATL 168
    8. Giannis Antetokounmpo MIL 161
    9. Devin Booker PHO 154
    10. Stephen Curry GSW 153
    11. Jeff Teague IND 152
    Kyle Lowry TOR 152
    13. Goran Dragic MIA 151
    14. Karl-Anthony Towns MIN 147
    15. Paul George IND 136

    I think pace and passing have increased leaguewide and that is leading to more turnovers which is fine, but things jump out at me on the above list.

    1. Harden and Westbrook are REALLY giving the ball away at an alarming rate.
    2. The drop-off after the top 5 is significant.
    3. The list is not as heavily dominated by PGs like it used to as players in more positions are the ones initiating offense more often now.
    4. Old school ball-security-value-every-possession coaches must be screaming at their TVs.

    Curry throws these show-boating passes that are optimistic at best and probably has 2 turnovers a game on those and it drives Kerr crazy. What the heck is Harden doing to get 6 TOs a game?!?

    High usage often results in lower efficiency and 1-3 on the usage chart are top 5 on the list (Westbrook, Cousins, and Harden), LeBron is 15th in usage and 4th in total TOs.

    The quality of teammates has some effect and that would explain Westbrook, Cousins, and Harden to some extent, LeBron's teammates are no excuse and neither really are Wall's.

    I've watched games from all of these guys and when they had really high turnover numbers I usually assumed it was an off night, so I'm not a valid judge of what is going on. Why are the numbers so high for these guys?

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    1. James Harden HOU 334
    2. Russell Westbrook OKC 304
    3. John Wall WAS 215
    4. LeBron James CLE 212
    5. DeMarcus Cousins SAC 198
    6. Eric Bledsoe PHO 175
    7. Dennis Schroder ATL 168
    8. Giannis Antetokounmpo MIL 161
    9. Devin Booker PHO 154
    10. Stephen Curry GSW 153
    11. Jeff Teague IND 152
    Kyle Lowry TOR 152
    13. Goran Dragic MIA 151
    14. Karl-Anthony Towns MIN 147
    15. Paul George IND 136

    I think pace and passing have increased leaguewide and that is leading to more turnovers which is fine, but things jump out at me on the above list.

    1. Harden and Westbrook are REALLY giving the ball away at an alarming rate.
    2. The drop-off after the top 5 is significant.
    3. The list is not as heavily dominated by PGs like it used to as players in more positions are the ones initiating offense more often now.
    4. Old school ball-security-value-every-possession coaches must be screaming at their TVs.

    Curry throws these show-boating passes that are optimistic at best and probably has 2 turnovers a game on those and it drives Kerr crazy. What the heck is Harden doing to get 6 TOs a game?!?

    High usage often results in lower efficiency and 1-3 on the usage chart are top 5 on the list (Westbrook, Cousins, and Harden), LeBron is 15th in usage and 4th in total TOs.

    The quality of teammates has some effect and that would explain Westbrook, Cousins, and Harden to some extent, LeBron's teammates are no excuse and neither really are Wall's.

    I've watched games from all of these guys and when they had really high turnover numbers I usually assumed it was an off night, so I'm not a valid judge of what is going on. Why are the numbers so high for these guys?
    I'm glad you posted this, that's straight bonkers. WB actually has a lower TOV% than last season .

    Hardens TOV% is up but marginally compared to his AST% , but it's still up to almost 20%

    KAT being in the top 15 is surprising

  3. #3
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    Not really surprising at all..

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sactown View Post
    I'm glad you posted this, that's straight bonkers. WB actually has a lower TOV% than last season .

    Hardens TOV% is up but marginally compared to his AST% , but it's still up to almost 20%

    KAT being in the top 15 is surprising
    Yes.

  5. #5
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    It's just usage. Russ and James are just off the charts in terms of usage...so that's going to lead to absurd raw turnover numbers. Russ is actually turning the ball less per play than last year, he's just involved in so many more plays.

    Just look at TOV% (turnovers per 100 plays...it's not gonna be the most perfect stat, but it adjusts for usage)

    Russ: 16.2
    Harden: 19.8
    Wall: 16.5
    James: 16.7

    Career averages (random guys I consider great passers)

    Stockton: 20.8
    Magic: 19.4
    Zeke: 16.8
    Kidd: 18.8
    Nash: 19.5
    CP3: 13.1 (GOAT)
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  6. #6
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    Harden can be frustrating to watch at times in this regard. Sometimes, it really is just sloppy passing or him trying to make an amazing pass to get an easy basket when he doesn't need to. But he also gets called for a lot of offensive fouls, and the Rockets also have some young guys (Capela and Harrell) who have trouble catching those passes on pick and roll plays, resulting in turnovers that should really be 2 points.

    But as ManRam said, when you consider his TO%, it's not absurdly high when compared to other all-time great distributors. I also read somewhere at some point this week that Harden leads the league in most passes per game (it was well over 60). If you pass the ball that many times per game, it's going to be picked off a few times by the other five guys on the floor.


  7. #7
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    The Rockets fan that I am, I did read that Harden was leading the league in turnovers but not at this alarming number.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Harden can be frustrating to watch at times in this regard. Sometimes, it really is just sloppy passing or him trying to make an amazing pass to get an easy basket when he doesn't need to. But he also gets called for a lot of offensive fouls, and the Rockets also have some young guys (Capela and Harrell) who have trouble catching those passes on pick and roll plays, resulting in turnovers that should really be 2 points.

    But as ManRam said, when you consider his TO%, it's not absurdly high when compared to other all-time great distributors. I also read somewhere at some point this week that Harden leads the league in most passes per game (it was well over 60). If you pass the ball that many times per game, it's going to be picked off a few times by the other five guys on the floor.
    Yeah but in his prime John Stockton was repping a nearly 5-1 Ast/To ratio, Harden isn't even at 2-1

    The other PGs mentioned about were also 3-1 in their prime

  9. #9
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    This doesn't involve the fact that it's better for that player to have the ball regardless of the turnover %. With the ball being in Harden's hands more and less on his teammates, those turnovers are bound to happen. Prime Stockton had someone to feed it to. Harden/Westbrook don't have a player half as good as Karl Malone.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by mightybosstone View Post
    Harden can be frustrating to watch at times in this regard. Sometimes, it really is just sloppy passing or him trying to make an amazing pass to get an easy basket when he doesn't need to. But he also gets called for a lot of offensive fouls, and the Rockets also have some young guys (Capela and Harrell) who have trouble catching those passes on pick and roll plays, resulting in turnovers that should really be 2 points.

    But as ManRam said, when you consider his TO%, it's not absurdly high when compared to other all-time great distributors. I also read somewhere at some point this week that Harden leads the league in most passes per game (it was well over 60). If you pass the ball that many times per game, it's going to be picked off a few times by the other five guys on the floor.
    The game is wildly different now than when those all-time greats listed were playing. Efficiency and a distribution of the role of who is initiating the offense has changed considerably. So the comparison to the past is a flawed starting point.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    This doesn't involve the fact that it's better for that player to have the ball regardless of the turnover %. With the ball being in Harden's hands more and less on his teammates, those turnovers are bound to happen. Prime Stockton had someone to feed it to. Harden/Westbrook don't have a player half as good as Karl Malone.
    Which brings up why LeBron who is 15th in usage and has excellent people to pass to is still so high on turnovers.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    Which brings up why LeBron who is 15th in usage and has excellent people to pass to is still so high on turnovers.
    I've watched some Cavs games and it's usually his teammates fault for not getting into position. There are passes LeBron makes that are just way too advanced for some guys and they just get out of position. He's also gotten pretty lazy and careless throughout the regular season so I don't think it necessarily matters as much as it should. The question is, who else do you give the ball to on the Cavs? Kyrie Irving's skill isn't predicated on passing the ball and outside of J.R. Smith, this Cavs team doesn't have much to get others involved. Which is why James was so adamant about a playmaker. Liggins can't playmake and Felder has been terrible for them. They really miss Delly's presence off the bench both offensively and defensively. There's no chemistry with Felder AT ALL. I don't know why they even put him out there tbh.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    I've watched some Cavs games and it's usually his teammates fault for not getting into position. There are passes LeBron makes that are just way too advanced for some guys and they just get out of position. He's also gotten pretty lazy and careless throughout the regular season so I don't think it necessarily matters as much as it should. The question is, who else do you give the ball to on the Cavs? Kyrie Irving's skill isn't predicated on passing the ball and outside of J.R. Smith, this Cavs team doesn't have much to get others involved. Which is why James was so adamant about a playmaker. Liggins can't playmake and Felder has been terrible for them. They really miss Delly's presence off the bench both offensively and defensively. There's no chemistry with Felder AT ALL. I don't know why they even put him out there tbh.
    While that is somewhat true ... the fact is that if his teammates don't make the "right" cuts or are not capable of catching the surprise bullet passes then he shouldn't be throwing them. Love was a very good passer and initiator, the problem there is that the area of the floor he used to do that from is also where LeBron likes to be.

    LeBron has more turnovers per game and more turnovers per minute than at any point in his career and he's doing it with the most expensive roster he's ever played with ... and all that is with his 2nd LOWEST usage for his career.

    He misses JR and Shump ... and yeah Delly ... but GM LeBron made those choices just as he chooses to throw those passes.

    LeBron being an outlier is a surprise because he is such an incredible all around player. I wonder if he's pressing for some reason, because he seems almost manic sometimes on the floor.
    Last edited by Scoots; 02-13-2017 at 05:43 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scoots View Post
    The game is wildly different now than when those all-time greats listed were playing. Efficiency and a distribution of the role of who is initiating the offense has changed considerably. So the comparison to the past is a flawed starting point.
    True. But you know what you're not considering? That the players in that list weren't remotely the scorers that Harden and Westbrook are. Not only are they creating for others at an extremely high rate, but they're attacking the basket and boast insanely high USG%. If you attack the rim as much as those guys do, you're going to be called for a lot of offensive fouls and you're going to lose control of the ball every once in a while.

    It's not just the passing that's leading to the high turnover rates, dude. It's that paired with their offensive aggressiveness.


  15. #15
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    It's interesting how frequently people are bringing up how it's the other players "fault" they didn't catch the pass etc. Stockton talked often about knowing who you are passing to and how each player had their own ways they needed to get the ball on a particular pass to be effective. A lot of this "other players fault" argument is still on the main playmaker for not knowing their teammates well enough to try and deliver the ball to them in an inopportune spot. Now given I certainly don't expect Harden, Westbrook, or LeBron to have the passing acumen of the best to ever do it but obviously these "flashy" passes/trying to force it to a guy for an easy shot that simply isn't capable of catching it isn't working and they should cut down on that. 300+ TOs at this point in the season is just astronomical.

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