Sorry folks, Beltran is delusional if he thinks Astros are a World Series contender

[spliff(TONE)]

I do see the disconnect here though. You're comparing the '20 team to the '17 team, whereas I'm just talking in general about their dropoff this year.

[GibbyIsMyHero]

I preempted “only player to miss significant time” by stating this...

“Here are the OPS’s and games played for the six “star” players from the 2017 team“

Again, you brought up pitching. All of my arguments refer to the offense of the carryover players from 2017 to now.

You can call me butthurt all you want, I don’t care lol. That part is true, otherwise I wouldn’t be in here...

But I came into a forum where the last thing written was about this very debate, for the very purpose of following up on this very debate with the benefit of hindsight. That’s not trolling, that’s absolutely relevant to the topic and to the Astros.

What did you come in here for?

[spliff(TONE)]

Again, we're basically having two separate conversations here. You're comparing the '17 Astros team to the '20 team and I'm talking about the Astros drop-off this year in general.

You can frame it any way you want but the reason both you and every other Dodger fan came in here originally was to gang up on and troll the one active Astros poster on this site. Last night you came in to do the same and since this entire Astros forum is a ghost town, I figured I'd do you a solid and give you the attention you were craving. We both have some valid points (even though we're not on the same page) despite not really having a valid reason to be in this forum discussing this particular matter. The MLB forum aka neutral ground would be a more suitable place for such a conversation.

Have a good one, Gibby. I know many of the most active Dodgers fans on this site see me as public enemy number one (and you're simply falling in line there because you've only really seen me in the middle of mindless exchanges with posters like ciaban) but I can honestly say, this conversation aside, I actually think you are a fairly intelligent and respectable poster....especially compared to your fellow PSD Dodger fans that I am more familiar with.

[spliff(TONE)]

One last thing: if you're really trying to have an honest conversation here, why would you be comparing the Astros offense in 2017 to 45 games in 2020? If you think 2017 was the only year they cheated, 2018 would be the better comparison. If you think they were cheating all the way through 2019, comparing that season to 2020 would be the better comparison.

As is, it seems much more like you're cherry picking. Three years is a long time when it comes to the overall performance of a pro sports team.

[GibbyIsMyHero]

One last thing: if you're really trying to have an honest conversation here, why would you be comparing the Astros offense in 2017 to 45 games in 2020? If you think 2017 was the only year they cheated, 2018 would be the better comparison. If you think they were cheating all the way through 2019, comparing that season to 2020 would be the better comparison.

As is, it seems much more like you're cherry picking. Three years is a long time when it comes to the overall performance of a pro sports team.

Firstly, I’m not cherry picking anything, all of the statistics are available (I typically use Baseball Reference and/or Fangraphs) to anyone who wants to make a counter argument. It doesn’t matter what statistics I use, it’s easy for you to say I’m “cherry picking” when you’re not providing a counter argument. There are so many statistics out there, you could literally say that about any stats one uses.

Secondly, I used 2017 because I was responding to a comment about the 2017 team being competitive regardless of whether or not they were cheating. I used 2020 because this is the year we can be most certain they aren’t cheating since they just got caught.

Thirdly, it’s funny you mention 2018, because the vast majority of their players had a tremendous drop that year as well after Cora took his scheme to Boston (incidentally, the team that won it all in 2018).

In 2019, many around the league raised suspicions about the Astros’ cheating as they were actually performing better than they did in 2017 only to lose in the WS to a team that caught on and frequently changed their signs.

And again, in 2020, their biggest names from the 2017 team are in the tank. It’s not cherry picking and it’s not coincidence.

[mightybosstone]

Flash forward with basically the same team after being caught cheating...

Mmm... Is it the same team, though? No Cole. Verlander and Osuna out for the year. No Alvarez. Their expected No. 4-5 starter in Pruitt missed the season. Missed Urquidy most of the year. Altuve, Bregman, Springer and Brantley missing a combined 53 games in a 60-game season. Yuli dealing with a hand injury most of the season.

If you look at all of that, it shouldn't be a surprise to anybody that they were a .500 team over a smaller 60-game sample size.

[spliff(TONE)]

Good luck trying to talk any sense in to embittered Dodgers fans.

[GibbyIsMyHero]

Mmm... Is it the same team, though? No Cole. Verlander and Osuna out for the year. No Alvarez. Their expected No. 4-5 starter in Pruitt missed the season. Missed Urquidy most of the year. Altuve, Bregman, Springer and Brantley missing a combined 53 games in a 60-game season. Yuli dealing with a hand injury most of the season.

If you look at all of that, it shouldn't be a surprise to anybody that they were a .500 team over a smaller 60-game sample size.

OPS numbers

Jose Altuve .629
Yuli Gurriel .658
Josh Reddick .693
Carlos Correa .709
Alex Bregman .801
George Springer .899

[mightybosstone]

OPS numbers

Jose Altuve .629
Yuli Gurriel .658
Josh Reddick .693
Carlos Correa .709
Alex Bregman .801
George Springer .899

So we're just going to completely ignore their numbers in 2018 and 2019? And the fact that it's a 60-game sample size and most of these guys missed significant time due to injury? And the fact that Josh Reddick has always sucked? Cool. Good to know.

[spliff(TONE)]

So we're just going to completely ignore their numbers in 2018 and 2019? And the fact that it's a 60-game sample size and most of these guys missed significant time due to injury? And the fact that Josh Reddick has always sucked? Cool. Good to know.

Exactly.

[GibbyIsMyHero]

OPS numbers

Jose Altuve .629
Yuli Gurriel .658
Josh Reddick .693
Carlos Correa .709
Alex Bregman .801
George Springer .899

Show me how other teams with this many players that had this rough of a year over year turnover dealing with the same 60 game sched.

Go ahead, I’ll wait.

[spliff(TONE)]

Go Padres! Go Astros!

[mightybosstone]

Nobody's really giving the Astros a shot in this series, and I'm seeing a lot of analysts bringing up that the A's were 7-3 against Houston in the regular season. But they totally neglect to mention that because of the weird scheduling and coronavirus, 8 of those 10 games were played in Oakland, where the Astros never play well.

On a (mostly) neutral site, the playing field should be a lot more even. The Astros have the pitching to make a legit run in this postseason; the question is whether the bats will wake up in time for it to happen.

[spliff(TONE)]

Looked good today.

[mightybosstone]

OPS numbers

Jose Altuve .629
Yuli Gurriel .658
Josh Reddick .693
Carlos Correa .709
Alex Bregman .801
George Springer .899

OPS numbers against Oakland in this series:

George Springer: 1.119
Jose Altuve: 1.326
Alex Bregman: 1.167
Carlos Correa: 1.754