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  1. #556
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  2. #557
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    Quote Originally Posted by spliff(TONE) View Post
    Nice read, Spliff, thanks,
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  3. #558
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    All good.

  4. #559
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    What you're saying makes no sense.

    You're telling me that the first law doesnt hold.weight because what if at sometime all the laws of nature were just completely diff from what we know? lol, ok, I mean then cant you just apply that logic to dismiss any argument?

    Unless theres something I'm not understanding, that's one of the weakest possible arguments I can think of.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    I didn't say that at all, did I? That's what you wanted me to say so you could strawman my argument.

    I don't do strawmen arguments.

    And yeah, I guess so. Maybe re-reread the thread to clear up your misuderstanding, if that's what you're really interested in doing?
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  5. #560
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I didn't say that at all, did I? That's what you wanted me to say so you could strawman my argument.

    I don't do strawmen arguments.

    And yeah, I guess so. Maybe re-reread the thread to clear up your misuderstanding, if that's what you're really interested in doing?
    lol, ease up

    Ok, so then you must mean new laws as in current laws we simply aren't aware of yet? (So the last 10 or so posts have been kinda a misunderstanding) Ok, that's almost like a seperate topic. Because right now we are talking about evidences, and the current evidences would be based upon current knowledge, such as the example I gave.

    I have no issue getting into possible new knowledge that could tell us other wise, but again, I kinda set these parameters of nature of time and space. Are they not absolute? I see them as absolute, I'm open to any interpretation of yours tho

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    Last edited by nastynice; 04-07-2020 at 04:58 PM.
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  6. #561
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    Just to take a step back i was just showing you why the First Law is not evidence for the impossible.
    I'm still not getting your take on this. You brought up an argument that centered around it being a "closed system", but if we are talking about all creation, does this not render the "closed system" aspect of the law moot?

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  7. #562
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    lol, ease up

    Ok, so then you must mean new laws as in current laws we simply aren't aware of yet? Ok, that's almost like a seperate topic. Because right now we are talking about evidences, and the current evidences would be based upon current knowledge, such as the example I gave.

    I have no issue getting into possible new knowledge that could tell us other wise, but again, I kinda set these parameters of nature of time and space. Are they not absolute? I see them as absolute, I'm open to any interpretation of yours tho

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    No. What I mean is that the Laws of Physics describe how this Universe works. The laws would be inadequate to describe a self-creating scenario. Otherwise, physicists would have had it worked out by now. I get that's where you want to jump right in and say, "Ah ha! Supernatural!"

    But where you say "Supernatural," I say "I don't know."

    There is evidence of neither.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  8. #563
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    I'm still not getting your take on this. You brought up an argument that centered around it being a "closed system", but if we are talking about all creation, does this not render the "closed system" aspect of the law moot?

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    I brought up closed system to show you why First Law isnt evidence of impossibility.

  9. #564
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I brought up closed system to show you why First Law isnt evidence of impossibility.
    Additionally its an error to assume the first law is violated in a spontaneously created quantum universe. The universe has a zero energy state with matter and anti-matter cancelling each other out in the aggregate. No laws violated when the universe spontaneously created itself from a quantum state of either it would pop into existence or not pop into existence. You can listen to Lawrence Krauss lecture on this very topic if you look online.

  10. #565
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    Quote Originally Posted by zookman65 View Post
    Additionally its an error to assume the first law is violated in a spontaneously created quantum universe. The universe has a zero energy state with matter and anti-matter cancelling each other out in the aggregate. No laws violated when the universe spontaneously created itself from a quantum state of either it would pop into existence or not pop into existence. You can listen to Lawrence Krauss lecture on this very topic if you look online.
    Thats awesome. I'll give it a watch.

  11. #566
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    Quote Originally Posted by zookman65 View Post
    Additionally its an error to assume the first law is violated in a spontaneously created quantum universe. The universe has a zero energy state with matter and anti-matter cancelling each other out in the aggregate. No laws violated when the universe spontaneously created itself from a quantum state of either it would pop into existence or not pop into existence. You can listen to Lawrence Krauss lecture on this very topic if you look online.
    Wouldn’t you still say that it is all speculation? I mean how would that even be possible to know?

  12. #567
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    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    No. What I mean is that the Laws of Physics describe how this Universe works. The laws would be inadequate to describe a self-creating scenario. Otherwise, physicists would have had it worked out by now. I get that's where you want to jump right in and say, "Ah ha! Supernatural!"

    But where you say "Supernatural," I say "I don't know."

    There is evidence of neither.
    Quote Originally Posted by fanofclendennon View Post
    I brought up closed system to show you why First Law isnt evidence of impossibility.
    No, just because it isnt worked out yet doesnt make me say aha. I do not think any law will ever overcome this barrier of creation by supernatural means, because within time and space it seems to be an impossibility.

    I am saying the universe cannot create itself, that is go from a state of non being to being. Being an energy filled universe, we can reword that as to go from a state of non energy to a state of energy.

    The first law states that all energy is conserved, which opposes the idea of going from a state of non energy to energy. To me this seems to be a clear evidence (not proof, just a piece of evidence) for my perspective.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  13. #568
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    Quote Originally Posted by zookman65 View Post
    Additionally its an error to assume the first law is violated in a spontaneously created quantum universe. The universe has a zero energy state with matter and anti-matter cancelling each other out in the aggregate. No laws violated when the universe spontaneously created itself from a quantum state of either it would pop into existence or not pop into existence. You can listen to Lawrence Krauss lecture on this very topic if you look online.
    Yes but you have to consider that these matter and anti matter particles are arising from giant magnetic energy fields. The matter and anti matter popping into existence is merely magnetic field energy being converted to matter anti matter energy. It is not energy popping into existence on it's own.

    Matter is just one of many forms of energy.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    RAIDERS, SHARKS, WARRIORS

    "i don't believe in mysteries but still i pray for my sister, when speaking to the higher power that listens, to the lifeless vision of freedom everytime we're imprisoned, to the righteous victims of people of a higher position" - planet asia, old timer thoughts

    "God is Universal he is the Ruler Universal" - gangstarr (rip guru), robbin hood theory

    "don't gain the world and lose your soul, wisdom is better than silver and gold" - bob marley, zion train

  14. #569
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    No, just because it isnt worked out yet doesnt make me say aha. I do not think any law will ever overcome this barrier of creation by supernatural means, because within time and space it seems to be an impossibility.

    I am saying the universe cannot create itself, that is go from a state of non being to being. Being an energy filled universe, we can reword that as to go from a state of non energy to a state of energy.

    The first law states that all energy is conserved, which opposes the idea of going from a state of non energy to energy. To me this seems to be a clear evidence (not proof, just a piece of evidence) for my perspective.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    Well, again, from what I understand of the First Law, and helped with an additional explanation from Zook, I don't see it as clear evidence (with the understanding you're not positing proof). But I think we've both made our cases.
    Last edited by fanofclendennon; 04-08-2020 at 08:06 AM.
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

  15. #570
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    Quote Originally Posted by nastynice View Post
    Yes but you have to consider that these matter and anti matter particles are arising from giant magnetic energy fields. The matter and anti matter popping into existence is merely magnetic field energy being converted to matter anti matter energy. It is not energy popping into existence on it's own.

    Matter is just one of many forms of energy.

    Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk
    So is that how it happened? God created the Giant Magnetic Energy Fields which then yielded matter and anti matter which led to the Big Bang and the expansion of the universe?

    Someone had to create the GMEF?

    Are you sure you don't have a PhD in Astrophysics?
    "Ain't got the call no more. Got a lot of sinful idears – but they seem kinda sensible...."

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