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View Poll Results: Who is the 23rd best player?

Voters
26. You may not vote on this poll
  • Mike Conley

    0 0%
  • Isaiah Thomas

    0 0%
  • Dwyane Wade

    6 23.08%
  • DeMar DeRozan

    0 0%
  • Gordon Hayward

    4 15.38%
  • Giannis Antetokounmpo

    3 11.54%
  • Dirk Nowitzki

    0 0%
  • Kevin Love

    0 0%
  • Al Horford

    5 19.23%
  • Marc Gasol

    6 23.08%
  • DeAndre Jordan

    1 3.85%
  • Hassan Whiteside

    0 0%
  • Dwight Howard

    0 0%
  • Andre Drummond

    1 3.85%
  • Pau Gasol

    0 0%
  • Other - please Specify

    0 0%
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Results 16 to 30 of 50
  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    how do you reconcile this?

    1) 5th on his own team in VORP
    2) tied for 4th in BPM
    3)8th in WS/48 (behind Amare)
    4) 4th in cumulative WS (behind Bosh, who played 20 less games)
    I voted Hayward but Wade could go here too.

    What you posted is advanced stats gone wrong...

    What does Amare & Bosh having more win shares than Wade prove other than that stat is meaningless?

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    I voted Hayward but Wade could go here too.

    What you posted is advanced stats gone wrong...

    What does Amare & Bosh having more win shares than Wade prove other than that stat is meaningless?
    The stat is not meaningless, c'mon. Like all stats it is up to the individual to use it in proper context.



  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bruno View Post
    how do you reconcile this?

    1) 5th on his own team in VORP
    2) tied for 4th in BPM
    3)8th in WS/48 (behind Amare)
    4) 4th in cumulative WS (behind Bosh, who played 20 less games)
    That #3 clearly shows how foolish it is to look at these advanced junk to make opinions.

  4. #19
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    Melo is overrated, he's over the hump, no longer efficient. (I'd consider that the panels first life time achievement vote here so far.)

    Wade is in the same boat to a lesser extent. He was overrated last season, was IMO the fourth best player on his own team when everyone was healthy. Stepped it up in the playoffs but it's a way smaller sample size. People will pretend otherwise (like they did for Kobe the last 10 years of his career) but Wade was horrid on D last year, a sieve.

    I'm tempted to take Kevin Love here based on what I believe he's capable of and not what he has been relegated to in Cleveland. But that's a reach and for the purposes of this exercise I'll hold off.

    I think it's Gordon Hayward. Above average defensive player, way more efficient than comparable wings, isn't on the down swing of his career. It's a pace and space game and he's the best fit of what's left for today's NBA IMO.

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6man View Post
    Shows you numbers aren't everything, which is definitely the truth. Whats the argument for his teammates not showing up against us? I'll tell you right now if he had one teammate consistently show up every game that series they would've won in 6. You guys are overlooking intangibles such as being able to take over the game and will your team to a win as well as being as clutch as it gets. He has a clutch gene that only a few can match still to this day in my opinion.

    On a side note, thoughts and prayers out to Wades family as his cousin was shot and killed while pushing her baby in a stroller. Some crazy **** going on in the world right now.
    Thats the thing, how do we know if they didn't show up or if they were in roles where Wade was prioritized? Numbers aren't everything but they do mean something and when we look at Wade's intangibles, I dont think his argument gets much better anyways. Hes a non-floor spacing, ball dominant, offense only, undersized SG these days, his stats now are actually worse than when he was with Bron.

    Like if we look at Dragics numbers when he gets to dominate the ball, they are actually better than Wade's. Perhaps this is partly why Riley let Wade go.... to see what the Dragon has left in the tank.

    Dragic had the best year of his career a mere 2 years ago (3 seasons ago), then he was kicked off his natural position to integrate an inferior offensive PG in Bledsoe and his numbers without Bledsoe on the court were unsurprisingly as good as his career year. Then he had to make room for yet another inferior PG and his talent was stretched to the limit and he became disgruntled. I feel like he went through what Nash went through when he was forced to play with Antoine Walker and a bunch of ball dominant players. When he went back to dominating the ball in Phoenix he had an MVP year (which statistically was actually only his 2nd best season so people should stop with the whole he became a totally different player when in reality, it was only the perception of him that changed), what if that happens to Dragic this year? What if Wade is a disaster in Chi town? Would you really chalk all that up to coincidence? Look I love Wade so I would love to be wrong here, but I've laid out how much history hes going up against next year in other threads, its not that realistic to expect him to defy the odds IMO.


    I dont know why Dragic and Wade couldn't find that balance from their initial half a season start, part of me thinks Bosh had something to do with it cuz when there are 3 focal points, someone is always left to suffer but here are the numbers as they were.

    Last year without Dragic, Wade's production is basically par for the course, slightly better without him but the team is definitely not at its best statistically.

    On the other hand, Dragic sees an EXPLOSION in his statistics without Wade, even more interesting is that we see the team was actually more productive when Wade was off the floor but Dragic was out there running the show. This happened in Phoenix with Bledsoe too, the team did just fine when Bledsoe was out with an injury because Dragic returned to his position of prominence. I see Wade having a similar influence on Dragic.


    Given these facts, could we say Wade's game as currently constructed is holding his teammates back? So maybe its not that they werent showing up, maybe hes making his teammates worse? We'll find out this year thats for sure but what kind of player do you know is as bad a shooter, as lazy defensively and has this much mileage on him that really made his team significantly better? The only guy I can think of is an old Drexler and just barely.

  6. #21
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    The thing is, Wade is such a great playmaker, better than dragic so why take the ball out of his hands? Not to mention he scores in far more ways than Dragic. You can look at the stats, especially in our series and see no one else on his team did anything. Dragic had 1 or 2 good games and the others I can't even think of. Joe, Richardson, Dragic, Winslow, etc. couldn't hit an open shot and finish in the lane off of set ups from Wade. They made it very easy for us on the defensive end because we had to only focus on 1 guy and we were still pushed to the limit, that's how good that guy still is.

    Look I'm not giving Wade a pass because he coasts at times during the regular season to preserve his body for the playoffs to do the things he did last year, but let's not act like those numbers are with Wade playing at full force, pedal to the metal all game because that's not the case. That's also another reason stats can be misleading, they don't take into account that someone is probably coasting/preserving themselves like Wade and even LeBron do in the regular season.

    With the Raptors, our guys are busting it every night in hopes of getting the 1st seed which isn't going to happen. We also have 2 all stars trying to prove themselves and establish themselves as top level players. What does Wade have to prove to anyone anymore? I guarantee Wade also knows they aren't getting the first seed but I do believe he thinks if they are in the right position in the playoffs that they can knock off a LeBron led team. That's just the mindset of an all-time great player.

    Now don't get me wrong, had Wade got to the playoffs and **** the bed I would be with you guys but there was multiple times I thought he was going to end our season and we somehow pulled it off. I'm basing my decision off of pretty simple logic here, there's not many players better than Wade to this day when he's going all out. As I've said before give me Wade over anything we have becuse he can still take his game to a level Lowry and DD can't. Would we have had a better record if we swapped Lowry with Wade or Derozan with Wade? Probably not but, I can tell you I would be much more confident with him headed into a playoff series.

    Also any number that shows Wade is 8th best on his team behind Amare other than rebounds definitely has its flaws.

    I'm taking Wade at this stage for the simple fact that I'm going to take the player who can take over a playoff series and will his team to wins over a borderline all star level player, especially players that can't get their teams to the playoffs.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6man View Post
    The thing is, Wade is such a great playmaker, better than dragic so why take the ball out of his hands?
    Because maybe hes not? Dragic sports the higher playmaking numbers and his assist skyrocket when Wade isn't out there preventing him from running the offense.

    Not to mention he scores in far more ways than Dragic. You can look at the stats, especially in our series and see no one else on his team did anything. Dragic had 1 or 2 good games and the others I can't even think of. Joe, Richardson, Dragic, Winslow, etc. couldn't hit an open shot and finish in the lane off of set ups from Wade. They made it very easy for us on the defensive end because we had to only focus on 1 guy and we were still pushed to the limit, that's how good that guy still is.
    The argument Im making is that maybe thats because its Wade's only way to remain relevant. Its harder to show up when a possibly inferior player is dominating the ball AND hes not much of an outlet option for you.

    Look I'm not giving Wade a pass because he coasts at times during the regular season to preserve his body for the playoffs to do the things he did last year, but let's not act like those numbers are with Wade playing at full force, pedal to the metal all game because that's not the case. That's also another reason stats can be misleading, they don't take into account that someone is probably coasting/preserving themselves like Wade and even LeBron do in the regular season.
    Thats exactly why we separate the playoff numbers but you're not going to convince anyone that a player not playing to his potential in the RS is a good thing. Its one thing to be LeBron and still put out numbers expected of a great, quite another when you're a fringe all-star who raises his game come playoffs and has history against him repeating the same feat this year.

    With the Raptors, our guys are busting it every night in hopes of getting the 1st seed which isn't going to happen. We also have 2 all stars trying to prove themselves and establish themselves as top level players. What does Wade have to prove to anyone anymore? I guarantee Wade also knows they aren't getting the first seed but I do believe he thinks if they are in the right position in the playoffs that they can knock off a LeBron led team. That's just the mindset of an all-time great player.
    Agreed. Wade is a playoff riser, sadly hes not raising his game to unbelievable levels that make us forget the importance of the RS (IMO). Imagine if Miami could coast knowing it had the 2 seed wrapped up.

    Now don't get me wrong, had Wade got to the playoffs and **** the bed I would be with you guys but there was multiple times I thought he was going to end our season and we somehow pulled it off. I'm basing my decision off of pretty simple logic here, there's not many players better than Wade to this day when he's going all out. As I've said before give me Wade over anything we have becuse he can still take his game to a level Lowry and DD can't. Would we have had a better record if we swapped Lowry with Wade or Derozan with Wade? Probably not but, I can tell you I would be much more confident with him headed into a playoff series.
    I guess my only complaint was that it wasn't the miracle you pretend it to be. You guys had the better team and Wade wasn't all that impressive, particularly defensively. He made the most of his 3pt shots but Im willing to wager he never shoots that well again.

    Also any number that shows Wade is 8th best on his team behind Amare other than rebounds definitely has its flaws.
    Every analysis has its flaws, I happen to find analysis that disregards the metrics to be the most flawed, its just a matter of what you know with regards to statistical trends. There is no flaw here, the numbers are as they are because thats exactly what transpired, its what you make of them that can be flawed and nobody has to apologize for having better numbers than Wade.

    I'm taking Wade at this stage for the simple fact that I'm going to take the player who can take over a playoff series and will his team to wins over a borderline all star level player, especially players that can't get their teams to the playoffs.
    I have him coming up soon but I disagree that hes as good as you suggest, there are SERIOUS holes in his game that his athleticism can no longer cover up. Hes stunting his teammates IMO and its not worth the payoff. We'll find out for sure this year for sure, heres hoping Wade defies all the odds cuz its not gonna be easy.

  8. #23
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    Giannis here easily at this point for me. This is for NEXT season. I don't see D-Wade playing at Giannis's level. Every stat backs that up and at this point, Giannis is only going to get better. Look into how great Giannis became during the latter part of the season when Kidd decided to take advantage of Giannis's playmaking ability. Once this guy bulks up and starts practicing his jumper, he'll be right up the top ten. I saw KD play his entire career. I think KD is only better than him shooting-wise. Overall, Giannis might be the better player very soon IMO.

    *Stop with the D-Wade was dominating in the postseason. It was GOOD, not great. His numbers were on-par with his regular season numbers so you can't possibly say he took his game to another level. I can't in all honesty give Wade credit for looking good against DeRozan (who has looked God awful since the playoffs started) and fricking Jeremy Lin and Courtney Lee. I'm sorry but I can't. I think it's time for some of you guys to realize that Wade is going to be on the decline big time this season. It's going to be really interesting to see how Chicago adjusts with zero shooting outside of Mirotic in their lineup and then have Wade share the ball with two other ball dominant players.
    Last edited by FlashBolt; 08-28-2016 at 01:11 AM.

  9. #24
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    K.Love? I'm not sure about most people but I'd like to think Giannis is better than him at this point in many aspects. I like K.Love and try to defend him as much as possible but Milwaukee would not be trading Giannis for K.Love while Cleveland would do so in a heartbeat.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shammyguy3 View Post
    The stat is not meaningless, c'mon. Like all stats it is up to the individual to use it in proper context.
    the stat in THIS case is meaningless... all 4 of them are if they are going to suggest that Amare & Bosh were better than Wade, or that Wade was the 4th or 5th best player on MIA last year.

  11. #26
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    Wade is a hell of an off the ball player though and Rondo is a far superior playmaker than Dragic so maybe they'll connect more. I would argue that Bulls team has just as much if not more shooting than that Heat team did.

    Giannis was on a team that was projected to have home court advantage but they **** the bed. I just can't pick someone who can't lead their team to the playoffs at this point. I guess it's just what you value at this point when selecting your players but like I said earlier, the Hawks apparently had 2 players better than Wade and a lot of very solid role players and couldn't win a game against the Cavs. I think we can all agree that wouldn't have happened against Wade. Wade and LeBron both ball out head to head and it's a damn shame we've never seen them in a playoff series against each other. I will also say that Miami team at full health last year would've made things very interesting in the ECF.

    All this basketball talk has me hype for 2K17 right around the corner.

  12. #27
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    Wade is not a good off the ball player...



  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shammyguy3 View Post
    Wade is not a good off the ball player...
    Really? What do you call his time in Miami with LeBron where he was off the ball slashing most of the time and scoring very efficiently?

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6man View Post
    Really? What do you call his time in Miami with LeBron where he was off the ball slashing most of the time and scoring very efficiently?
    Yeah, he was great at it and hopefully Rondo finds him for some easy baskets. Still, he can't shoot and most of his shots come from within the basket. Will be tough to see him being any better than he currently is.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by 6man View Post
    Really? What do you call his time in Miami with LeBron where he was off the ball slashing most of the time and scoring very efficiently?
    That was multiple years ago... And it took a lot of time for him to figure out how to play off the ball; look at his %ast rates. His highest %ast rate was only 44% and that was with Lebron; his rate last year was less than 28% meaning he was not playing off the ball at all



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