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  1. #8836
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    This whole forum is becoming a bash BOP forum. I agree with very little of what he says, but it’s getting old sifting through pages and pages of people bashing him.
    Then don't.


    "It is a grotesque parody of the bazaar at Marrakech, as if dumb animals had been granted only the amount of sentience required to mock humanity."

  2. #8837
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bird of Prey View Post
    There isn't "PROBLEM" per se with OPS plus. However, I think that is just evaluates power hitter and denigrates the worth of other great hitters and players. If you build a teams through the decades of baseball of purely OPS+ players you are not going to win a championship. You won't see many short stops, 2nd basemen, center fielders, catchers, 3rd basemen through each decade of baseball. For every AROID, you are going to see 20-30 way less power guys in baseball at the time. Same things for the Mike Schmidts of the baseball world at the time.

    Its just a terrible metric to be used to rate hitting and give the huge power guys a false and unusual way of rating baseball hitter. When i see a slug like Joe Conseco rated higher than Rose as a hitter because of his OPS+ it pissed me off. It also brings into question of the horrible use of steroids and HGH to amp up cheaters like Conseco, Bonds, McGwire, SoSO, and AROID. What would their OPS+ really be if they played fairly and push them up in these sham ratings?

    Ted Williams is the greatest hitter i even saw play. I say that he would have broke just about every meaningful hitting record in baseball if not volunteering for becoming a fighter pilot ACE DURING WWII AND KOREAN WAR.

    The above said, however, is that Williams did not give proper value for the guys hitting skills of getting on base, getting in scoring position, etc. He also i think misses seeing the big picture of having guys like Gallo in a line-up because of the 1 in 30+ at bats that he will accidently find a pitch and hit it in the stands. wonder how Ted felt about Gallo's worth as a hitter?
    You're at least correct in that OPS overrates slugging, given that it simply adds them together when OBP is about twice as valuable as SLG, but we're not talking about fine margins here, and Rose's .375 OBP is nowhere among the best ever.

    Power hitters exist without steroids too, so I'm not sure why you're going on about PED users as if it makes Rose's numbers somehow better.

    And if cheating is really a concern for you, then we can talk about Rose using corked bats.


    "It is a grotesque parody of the bazaar at Marrakech, as if dumb animals had been granted only the amount of sentience required to mock humanity."

  3. #8838
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    I don't get the argument in respect to Gwynn either. Gwynn did everything Rose did offensively and better, aside from hitting doubles.

    Gwynn had a 5 year cumulative stretch from 1993-1997 where he hit .369. You're never going to see that again. Him and George Brett are the only guys to come close to batting .400 in an individual season (.394 in 1994 for Gwynn) since Williams hit .406 in 1941.
    Last edited by metswon69; 08-11-2022 at 03:43 PM.

  4. #8839
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    I don't get the argument in respect to Gwynn either. Gwynn did everything Rose offensively and better, aside from hitting doubles.

    Gwynn had a 5 year cumulative stretch from 1993-1997 where he hit .369. You're never going to see that again. Him and George Brett are the only guys to come close to batting .400 in an individual season (.394 in 1994 for Gwynn) since Williams hit .406 in 1941.
    That's because there isn't an argument. His AVG, OBP, and SLG are all better. It's why he has to keep relying on counting stats.


    "It is a grotesque parody of the bazaar at Marrakech, as if dumb animals had been granted only the amount of sentience required to mock humanity."

  5. #8840
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    Then don't.
    Yea, wouldn’t want take the playground away from the children and have actual engaging conversation here.

  6. #8841
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    Yea, wouldn’t want take the playground away from the children and have actual engaging conversation here.
    Right.


    "It is a grotesque parody of the bazaar at Marrakech, as if dumb animals had been granted only the amount of sentience required to mock humanity."

  7. #8842
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    Yea, wouldn’t want take the playground away from the children and have actual engaging conversation here.
    I agree with you again! I used to skip over most of the "specials" posts and thought it was pretty annoying. I do the same with BOP.
    Rep Power: 0




    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
    My dick is named 'Ewing'.

  8. #8843
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    You're at least correct in that OPS overrates slugging, given that it simply adds them together when OBP is about twice as valuable as SLG, but we're not talking about fine margins here, and Rose's .375 OBP is nowhere among the best ever.

    Power hitters exist without steroids too, so I'm not sure why you're going on about PED users as if it makes Rose's numbers somehow better.

    And if cheating is really a concern for you, then we can talk about Rose using corked bats.
    BULLCRAP. NEXT I GUESS ROSE SHOT ABE LINCOLN, MAYBE HE KIDNAPPED THE LINDBURG BABY ALSO.

    Another Bullcrap is when OBP+ was done back in the 50s. It was because the long ball hitters moaned and groaned about their contract negotiations being pulled down by the higher average players and they getting too much of the money.

    OPS+ was one of the first "stats" to get invented not because of measuring the worth of a hitter but rather the to get sluggers like Williams, Killebrew, Musial, and Mays more money.

  9. #8844
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bird of Prey View Post
    BULLCRAP. NEXT I GUESS ROSE SHOT ABE LINCOLN, MAYBE HE KIDNAPPED THE LINDBURG BABY ALSO.

    Another Bullcrap is when OBP+ was done back in the 50s. It was because the long ball hitters moaned and groaned about their contract negotiations being pulled down by the higher average players and they getting too much of the money.

    OPS+ was one of the first "stats" to get invented not because of measuring the worth of a hitter but rather the to get sluggers like Williams, Killebrew, Musial, and Mays more money.
    It's not. Read the article; they confirmed it was his game-used bat, and they x-rayed it to confirm it was hollowed out. Multiple other people have said the same thing.

    OPS and OPS+ are different statistics. OBP+ isn't a thing. AVG isn't a component in OPS or OPS+, and so a "high average hitter" would have no more impact on OPS than a low-AVG, high-BB hitter would.

    But, again: OPS and OPS+ are different statistics.

    Also, OPS+ is only one of about six different statistics I used.


    "It is a grotesque parody of the bazaar at Marrakech, as if dumb animals had been granted only the amount of sentience required to mock humanity."

  10. #8845
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    I don't get the argument in respect to Gwynn either. Gwynn did everything Rose did offensively and better, aside from hitting doubles.

    Gwynn had a 5 year cumulative stretch from 1993-1997 where he hit .369. You're never going to see that again. Him and George Brett are the only guys to come close to batting .400 in an individual season (.394 in 1994 for Gwynn) since Williams hit .406 in 1941.
    To me, Gwynn had a great career and was one of the greatest hitters of all time for about 7-8 years. But while he lasted a long time he also was not a great player for his last 6-7 years. He lost his speed, he was sad to watch while playing the outfield ballooning to 330# at the end. in my analogy, he was the hitting verson of Sandy Koufax. great for ten years or so good enough to be a first ballot HOFer but for great longevity lacking not one of the greatest of all time. Same holds for Gwynn.

    Rose had a hitting streak of 44 games. He won an MVP award. Gwynn never came close. More all star appearances, played more than 500 games at five different positions. Gwynn played one. Rose had more abs, 1200 more hits, many more doubles, way many more triples, more walks, no steroids, played over 750+ consecutive games.

    Yours are a classic example of how to lie with statistics. Hits are hits. Being in shape for 24 years to play and hustle and win championships should be honored particularly in this age of coddling baseball players being told not to run down the line lest they pull a hammy? Wonder if they ever told Cobb, Rose, or Gwynn not to run through a base, to take a strong turn to second. Try to tell Cobb or Rose to not trying to score from 2nd on a single. I've love to have players from those generations come back and looks at today's game and their opinion of play.

  11. #8846
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    Tony Gwynn over his last seven seasons: .350/.392/.490 135 OPS+.

    Every one of those numbers is better than his career numbers.

    Why do you insist on doing this to yourself?

    Edit: Fixed the wording.


    "It is a grotesque parody of the bazaar at Marrakech, as if dumb animals had been granted only the amount of sentience required to mock humanity."

  12. #8847
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    I agree with you again! I used to skip over most of the "specials" posts and thought it was pretty annoying. I do the same with BOP.
    Don't lie. You are now lying. I can't believe how the hatred that you and others express at me because I offer intelligent opinions shared by hundreds of millions of Americans transfers here to continuing attacking me for my baseball opinions. You sad pieces of shatt are poor examples of trying to argue points and not attack the messenger who delivers the points.

  13. #8848
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bird of Prey View Post
    To me, Gwynn had a great career and was one of the greatest hitters of all time for about 7-8 years. But while he lasted a long time he also was not a great player for his last 6-7 years. He lost his speed, he was sad to watch while playing the outfield ballooning to 330# at the end. in my analogy, he was the hitting verson of Sandy Koufax. great for ten years or so good enough to be a first ballot HOFer but for great longevity lacking not one of the greatest of all time. Same holds for Gwynn.

    Rose had a hitting streak of 44 games. He won an MVP award. Gwynn never came close. More all star appearances, played more than 500 games at five different positions. Gwynn played one. Rose had more abs, 1200 more hits, many more doubles, way many more triples, more walks, no steroids, played over 750+ consecutive games.

    Yours are a classic example of how to lie with statistics. Hits are hits. Being in shape for 24 years to play and hustle and win championships should be honored particularly in this age of coddling baseball players being told not to run down the line lest they pull a hammy? Wonder if they ever told Cobb, Rose, or Gwynn not to run through a base, to take a strong turn to second. Try to tell Cobb or Rose to not trying to score from 2nd on a single. I've love to have players from those generations come back and looks at today's game and their opinion of play.
    Winning an MVP award and having more all star appearances from different positions doesn't make him a better hitter. Nate already mentioned that the year Rose won the MVP he wasn't even the NL's best player. You would easily make the case for Joe Morgan who had a higher WAR and Willie Stargell who had far better offensive statistics. Tom Seaver was the best player in baseball that year for a team that made the WS. Again all the numbers you keep bringing up are counting stats due to 5,000 more PA. That accounts for more than 7 full seasons worth of PA. It helps that Rose was a manager/player which extended his career. He wouldn't have been a major league passed the age of 41 otherwise.

    If we're going to use hitting streaks as a criteria, I guess Luis Castillo is better than Tony Gwynn, Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Barry Bonds, etc.

    Its not lying with statistics. Its you having no clue how to interpret them. Gwynn is a better hitter than Rose. Rose isn't a top 5 hitter all time either. If you ask anyone who actually knows MLB they would tell you the same thing.
    Last edited by metswon69; 08-11-2022 at 11:12 PM.

  14. #8849
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    BOP,
    You need to stop it.
    My Ignore List: bklynny67, crovash, nastynice, natepro, OhSoSlick, spliff(TONE), zmaster52

  15. #8850
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    Quote Originally Posted by natepro View Post
    That's because there isn't an argument. His AVG, OBP, and SLG are all better. It's why he has to keep relying on counting stats.
    At 44 years old, Rose played in around 120 games, hit .270 and had a OBP of .395 or so. He had more than 1200 hits than Gwynn, more doubles, many more triples and more home runs. I'd say that Rose outhit Gwynn by a lot during his career and was a totally more valuable player all around.

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