General/Off-topic discussion

[Bird of Prey]

This is just my own personal perspective.

My all-time favorite Cub is Andre Dawson. He played the game hard and honest. His 438 career HRs are more impressive to me than Sosa’s 609. His MVP season in 1987 is more impressive to me than Sosa‘s in 1998. Because we will never know what Sosa’s numbers would have been without the PEDs. Maybe Sammy still hits 50 bombs in 1998 if he isn’t on the juice, but we’ll never know and for that reason I will never be impressed with the gaudy numbers he put up.

Remember when he came up? He was skinny and fast with some power but certainly not looking like he was going to be a power hitter.

[Bird of Prey]

If it happens it happens, but I won’t go out of my way to welcome Sammy back to Wrigley.

Remember the CORKED BATS? He cheated on other things also.

[spliff(TONE)]

I’m not a huge baseball guy but from what I remember, didn’t David Ortiz also use steroids? How did he get in and Bonds didn’t?

Yup.

He's got a winning smile and wasn't a dick to the press. Nevermind that he wasn't even half the player Bonds was.

[spliff(TONE)]

The funny thing is he was blackballed from the game after 2007 as well. He could have still played at that point. He had a 1.045 OPS and led the league in OBP in his final season.

Yup. Hated that even though it was obvious that he wasn't returning to the Giants. Would have been fun seeing what he could have done with the Yankees or Rays or something in a DH role.

[Jack the Ripper]

Remember the CORKED BATS? He cheated on other things also.

Yep! My older brother was driving me to my hockey game and we had the radio on and they were talking about a corked bat incident happening in Chicago. I never for a second thought it was an accident or that he hadn’t used a corked bat in games prior to that. It was another embarrassment for a franchise that had enough reasons already to be the punchline of jokes and another reason why I have no fond memories of Sosa.

[spliff(TONE)]

I mean Ortiz wasn't even the best position player of those 2000s era Red Sox teams. Manny Ramirez was a much better offensive player than Ortiz and he'll probably never sniff the HOF.

Manny was absolutely a top right-handed hitter of his generation. Fun to watch play too.

[dbroncos78087]

Yup.

He's got a winning smile and wasn't a dick to the press. Nevermind that he wasn't even half the player Bonds was.

I love Big Papi but he shouldn’t be in the HOF before Bonds. I read that Bonds has a higher OPS than him even if you turned all Bonds 700+ HR into outs.

Bottom line: Bonds should have been elected ten years ago and Big Papi should have gotten in this year. They got it half right.

[Bird of Prey]

So was Ty Cobb and he's in. There's a number of not so great dudes in the MLB HOF. The problem is the baseball writer's inconsistency in that respect. You can be an ******* who breaks the rules but as long you have the resume and the writers like you, you're in. If they don't like you, your chances are non existent.

I know Rose has had a number of chances and screwed them up but his play on the field merits him being in just like Bonds and Clemens.

There is a fact filled book about the life of Ty Cobb and he actually was not the ogre that he was made out to be. The author takes great pain to tell the truth about his life. It turned out that there was one sportswriter who basically made it his life's mission to try and ruin Cobb's reputation.

[Jack the Ripper]

Remember when he came up? He was skinny and fast with some power but certainly not looking like he was going to be a power hitter.

As Sammy blew up, he became a very one-dimensional ball player. It’s a shame. Chicago loved that guy. He was as popular as any Cub in my lifetime.

[metswon69]

There is a fact filled book about the life of Ty Cobb and he actually was not the ogre that he was made out to be. The author takes great pain to tell the truth about his life. It turned out that there was one sportswriter who basically made it his life's mission to try and ruin Cobb's reputation.

Yeah Nate pointed that out. I'll take his word for it because I know he's a big baseball fan and I haven't read much in regard to Ty Cobb, admittedly. Just going by what has been the innuendo for years. I love the history of baseball but there's a point where you're not going to know everything in great detail.

I understand where he is coming from though. You don't just allow certain guys in because of past mistakes. The problem is guys like Clemens and Bonds are not just your average HOFers. They are 2 of the best talents the league has ever seen.

[Bird of Prey]

I'm aware of what Rose agreed to. MLB could easily rescind that ban if they wanted to and at this point, considering betting is literally everywhere, they probably should. I dont think the personal animosity is there between Rob and Pete as there was between Bud and Pete.

I would put Clemens and Bonds in. Their numbers are too good to leave out. Integrity has always been super subjective among the writers. Ortiz was in the Mitchell report as a known PED user and yet he gets in when other known or perceived steroid users aren't, only because writers love him.

Rose belongs in the HOF in my eyes. Bonds and Clemens do not because they cheated with the use of PEDs. Ortiz doesn't belong either because he cheated also.

[metswon69]

Rose belongs in the HOF in my eyes. Bonds and Clemens do not because they cheated with the use of PEDs. Ortiz doesn't belong either because he cheated also.

Its too hard to distinguish who are PED users and who are not. I loved Mike Piazza and Frank Thomas as a kid for example. Neither of them ever failed a test but there's a pretty good chance both of them used given the era they played in and how prodigious hitters they were. Those are just two arbitrary HOFers I picked. There are more examples.

[Bird of Prey]

That’s the shame of it. He was already on track for the HOF pre-PEDs.

Yeah. He was certainly going to go into the HOF if he didn't cheat like he did. But he did cheat. He used PEDs to improve his performance on the field for a long period of time. This wasn't some "morals' question. This was a big boost to his power and being able to recover quickly physically. No way does Bonds break those home run records that he did without PEDs.

Truth is that Bonds got jealous at all of the attention that McGwire and Sosa got so he went after roids HUGELY.

[Bird of Prey]

So he didn’t hit those baseballs? Did I imagine all that?

He/they did hit those baseballs, But those same baseeballs would not have traveled as far as they did without the juice that they took. guys who had warning track power could reach the deep seats with the juice. The story that all HGH and roids just helped players recover quicker and to stay strong is a lie. It does a lot more than that.

[natepro]

I know from my interactions with you that you're a huge baseball fan so how does it look optically that the most talented player in a sport's history is not in their HOF? Btw, do you think Bond's personal life is the reason they keep out of the HOF? Let's be real here. We know why they keep him out. The PEDs, the fact that Bonds always treated the media like ****, and that hardly anyone liked him are the reasons why he has no plaque in Cooperstown.

That sounds crazy to me when you look at how great he was on the field.

Karl Malone got a 13 year old girl pregnant and he is in the basketball HOF. I understand these guys aren't great human beings, made some bad choices, broke rules, etc but we're not talking about borderline talents here.

Was Clemens known to be bad with the media? I feel like he was pretty well liked for most of his career.

Either way, though, I think it's a mix of PEDs and his other off-field issues; the BBWA isn't a monolith, as you can see from some of the goofy *** ballots that writers submit. Maybe if he doesn't decide to turn himself into RoboBonds the other off-field issues don't happen too and he's easily in the HoF, but that's not the career he decided to have. I think putting him in the HoF results in a ceremony with everyone there all thinking the same thing and no one saying it, and that's bizarre.

It's also not really fair to compare Clemens and Bonds to Ortiz the way people have. The only positive test we know about with Ortiz was during the 2003 survey testing, and not only can the MLBPA not tell him what he tested positive for since they were all sealed under court order, but we know there were false positives in with the tests as well, meaning we can't even say for sure if he actually tested positive for anything, and if so what it was.

He broke a rule that comes with being banned from baseball. In order to stop the investigation he agreed to be banned from baseball. It just seems crazy to me to come to an agreement with the Commissioner's Office regarding something you did, then later decide you don't like what you agreed to and expect everyone to just go along with that.

I don't know anything about Karl Malone, or basketball in general really, but it just seems strange to me not to hold someone accountable for the things they do when not "at work" simply because they're an athlete.