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  1. #7321
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    His stats arenít legitimate.
    His stats before the year 2000 presumably are. He really didn't see the crazy spike in his play until 2001 which is probably around the time he started using PEDs.

    That said, people forget how great Bonds was previous to that 73 home run season. He was the best defensive LFer ever, he arguably had the best plate vision of anyone to play the game, and he won the MVP award 3 times from 1990-1993. His stats up until the time he started using were certainly legitimate.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-26-2022 at 11:42 PM.

  2. #7322
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    So he didnít hit those baseballs? Did I imagine all that?
    So you think the use of PEDs didnít have any effect on his career statistics?

  3. #7323
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    Iím not a huge baseball guy but from what I remember, didnít David Ortiz also use steroids? How did he get in and Bonds didnít?

  4. #7324
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    His stats before the year 2000 presumably are. He really didn't see the crazy spike in his play until 2001 which is probably around the time he started using PEDs.

    That said, people forget how great Bonds was previous to the 73 home run season. He was the best defensive LFer ever, he arguably had the best plate vision of anyone to play the game, and he won the MVP award 3 times from 1990-1993. His stats up until the time he started using were certainly legitimate.
    Thatís the shame of it. He was already on track for the HOF pre-PEDs.

  5. #7325
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    Quote Originally Posted by valade16 View Post
    Iím not a huge baseball guy but from what I remember, didnít David Ortiz also use steroids? How did he get in and Bonds didnít?
    Because he is almost universally hated by the older generation of writers. Bonds always had a **** reputation. Many of his teammates didn't like him either.

    Whereas Ortiz is the antithesis of that. Loved by writers, loved by his teammates, etc.
    Last edited by metswon69; 01-26-2022 at 11:54 PM.

  6. #7326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    So you think the use of PEDs didnít have any effect on his career statistics?
    I donít think for a second it didnít. But I also know that the fact that it doesnít matter how beefy someone is, they still have to make contact with the ball.

    The fact is that between 2/3 and 3/4 of the players in that era were using. And if you think that performance enhancing drugs are a new revelation of that era, boy do I have news for you. Literally everyone was on greenies back in the day.

  7. #7327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    Thatís the shame of it. He was already on track for the HOF pre-PEDs.
    Yeah he was. The writers wouldn't have had much of an argument to keep him out because he would have finished as a top 3 player all time regardless. He gave them the additional ammunition to keep him out once he blew up like a balloon and started putting up video game numbers into his late 30s and early 40s.

    The funny thing is he was blackballed from the game after 2007 as well. He could have still played at that point. He had a 1.045 OPS and led the league in OBP in his final season.

  8. #7328
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    Quote Originally Posted by dbroncos78087 View Post
    I donít think for a second it didnít. But I also know that the fact that it doesnít matter how beefy someone is, they still have to make contact with the ball.

    The fact is that between 2/3 and 3/4 of the players in that era were using. And if you think that performance enhancing drugs are a new revelation of that era, boy do I have news for you. Literally everyone was on greenies back in the day.
    Thatís not the point. None of it is, actually.

    Players didnít take PEDs because it made them better at hitting baseballs. They took them because it allowed them to play at a higher level for longer, which is the reason that Bondsí late career numbers defy his age.

  9. #7329
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Yeah he was. The writers wouldn't have had much of an argument to keep him out because he would have finished as a top 3 player all time regardless. He gave them the additional ammunition to keep him out once he blew up like a balloon and started putting up video game numbers into his late 30s and early 40s.

    The funny thing is he was blackballed from the game after 2007 as well. He could have still played at that point. He had a 1.045 OPS and led the league in OBP in his final season.
    Ultimately, the blame falls on the shoulders of MLB as much as it does Bonds, which is the one reason I am willing to entertain the idea of those guys getting in the HOF.

  10. #7330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    Ultimately, the blame falls on the shoulders of MLB as much as it does Bonds, which is the one reason I am willing to entertain the idea of those guys getting in the HOF.
    Agreed. I would put them all in. Just put an asterisk on their plaques. It's dumb to let guys in or leave them out based on arbitrary bias.

  11. #7331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    I hope Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa never see the Hall. I donít get the love for those guys. I was a Cubs fan before Sosa, saw his whole career, loved him at the time until he got himself kicked out of town, and Iím good never seeing him at Wrigley again.
    Me too. I coached high school and junior college baseball after I retired during the steroid days and I saw first hand how bad steroids affected even high school age boys. McGwire played at the high school that I coached at and grew up not far from where I live now. He and those others didn't have to cheat but they did and no way should they be allowed in the HOF.

  12. #7332
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    Quote Originally Posted by metswon69 View Post
    Agreed. I would put them all in. Just put an asterisk on their plaques. It's dumb to let guys in or leave them out based on arbitrary bias.
    In that case, I would be okay with it as well. Put an asterisk next to the seasonís in question and move on from this.

  13. #7333
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    Quote Originally Posted by koldjerky View Post
    They literally voted a guy first ballot whoís on the roid
    Yeah. That was too bad. HE was a cheater also.

  14. #7334
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    I mean Ortiz wasn't even the best position player of those 2000s era Red Sox teams. Manny Ramirez was a much better offensive player than Ortiz and he'll probably never sniff the HOF.

  15. #7335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack the Ripper View Post
    Thatís not the point. None of it is, actually.

    Players didnít take PEDs because it made them better at hitting baseballs. They took them because it allowed them to play at a higher level for longer, which is the reason that Bondsí late career numbers defy his age.
    Should no one form that era be in then? Because you canít know who was or wasnít using.

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