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  1. #571
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    How hard are the mental gymnastics required to convince oneself that ownership has wasted a lot of money letting Shapiro spend it. I cant find it how but I swear I saw something to that effect in a post on this thread.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    It was me. I was defending ownership in that they were true to their word in spending big with both Ricardi and AA, and that they have spent with Shapiro so far too, but nothing that has helped us win any games (except happ for a bit).

    I donít see the gymnastics there.

  2. #572
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    Not that the Orioles are a model organization when it comes to developing pitchers - eg. Gausman, but they did stick with Bundy for quite a long time. Now he's a pretty good starter.

  3. #573
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Iím growing bored of explaining the same conversation you fail to follow over and over again so this is the last time.

    We sucked in 2017 because they were beginning to tear it down and lose on purpose. Mission accomplished. Nice Edwin stats - gymnastics considering both were injured. So yeah I guess we wouldnít have had a good year with those guys both injured and no other attempts to augment the ML club. But the 2 years since then would have been bolstered by an extra 80 HR and 200 rbi.

    I explained (three times now) that we could package Pearson for a pitcher, and grosh+kloff for another. NEVER did I say I wanted to do this, only that this FO could have been in a position to pull an AA and bless us with some playoff glory on their way out. AND I said they cannot do this because the team is too young and weak. The only way they could have done it is if they still had enc and dosh. They donít, so they should not and cannot do that.
    Simple right? Everyone else seems to understand what Iím getting at except you. And theoretically they COULD have all the same assets to go along with enc and dosh. I realize they enc pick on Pearson, but THEORETICALLY they COULD have.

    How is unrealistic to keep 2 MVP caliber bats for around 20m AAV each? They both were interested in staying until this FO made it clear they were going to try and lose on purpose and exonerated them.

    Regardless of your opinion, my facts are true. They could have kept the window open by keeping those two guys. They could have all the same assets if they picked Pearson where warmoth was picked. They could have decided to trade the farm for 2 torp and go for it next season if they did the above.
    Facts. Now tell me how your opinion supersedes them.
    They werenít starting to lose in 2017 on purpose. Everyone was hurt or just flat out sucked. If you donít believe me then listen to Shapiroís latest interview where he even talks about trying to extend the window. Youíre incorrect in saying they were starting to lose on purpose in 2017 and itís not even me saying that. Itís Mark Shapiro.

    I read and responded to your trade ideas. Itís not that Iím not paying attention itís that I donít agree that Kloffenstein+Groshans could fetch a TORP and trading Pearson would be counter productive. Your theories are flawed and itís all part of my point that no, they couldnít be in a position to make a push this off season along with the fact that it would be dumb to gut the farm like AA did. Itís like you want to say your piece and only hear people agree with you. I also disagree with your theory that ďthe window never had to closeĒ.

    It was unrealistic to keep both of them around because up until this year we were loaded with unmovable contracts that were clogging up the salary cap. Furthermore they were both aging players and we already had a bunch of those already making 20+ mil a year. This is something Iíve said countless times that you conveniently choose to ignore. Salary cap was a problem for these guys from day 1 up until now.

    You refer to your opinion as fact which really says a lot. Nothing that you said is fact, itís just your opinion. Hypothetical situations arenít facts either. Theyíre thoughts in your head.

  4. #574
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    Salary cap?

    You mean the self imposed type

  5. #575
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    That whole thing and youíre going to pull 2 words from it to debate for the 20th time? That just tells me you are going to great lengths to disagree. You arenít even open to discussion. I see my gfís do the same thing. They key in on one piece of a sentence to avoid digesting the entire thing and have an excuse to keep being upset.

    Vlad, Jansen, srf and bouriki is already enough to prove the point that the cupboard was not bare imo. That is many more quality specs than many higher rated farms have produced. Book closed.

    Youíre failing to follow the conversation again. I said a 100 loss season was NOT inevitable. Only under this regimes plan of losing on purpose was it inevitable.

    When is the deadline for you? Another 5 years without the playoffs? Because if weíre building through the draft at a clip of 2 above replacement level players every 4 seasons... weíre officially in the perpetual rebuild.
    Dude, I highlighted that point because it had already been settled but for some reason you want to bring it up again. If you want to claim that Vladdy Jr and 3 guys who wonít be in the league in 5 years is not leaving the cupboard bare then so be it. You hit a dead end in this debate a few pages back but now apparently you didnít. Itís just incredibly hypocritical because you still refuse to admit that the new regime can build a great farm system. Iíve also pointed out numerous times that Shapiro has said they will spend when the time is right. Clearly theyíre going to do more than just draft. Itís just what they had to do for a while because they inherited the oldest team in the majors along with a gutted farm system but thatís too hard for you to process. Also Jansen is in danger of losing his job next year to a guy that Atkins acquired so I have no idea why youíre using him to try and strengthen your argument.

    I have never engaged you on your 100 loss season point so I donít know why youíre bringing it up.

    Youíre not good at debate and itís clear you just want to say your piece and have nobody dispute it. You also call your opinions facts which is laughable. We can agree to disagree here and just enjoy watching the 6th best farm in the MLB continue to develop after Vladdy, Bo and Biggio have all graduated. I still donít expect you to give this regime their props on the farm though.

  6. #576
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanton View Post
    Salary cap?

    You mean the self imposed type
    No, the one that ownership imposed. Great point though.

  7. #577
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Dude, I highlighted that point because it had already been settled but for some reason you want to bring it up again. If you want to claim that Vladdy Jr and 3 guys who wonít be in the league in 5 years is not leaving the cupboard bare then so be it. You hit a dead end in this debate a few pages back but now apparently you didnít. Itís just incredibly hypocritical because you still refuse to admit that the new regime can build a great farm system. Iíve also pointed out numerous times that Shapiro has said they will spend when the time is right. Clearly theyíre going to do more than just draft. Itís just what they had to do for a while because they inherited the oldest team in the majors along with a gutted farm system but thatís too hard for you to process. Also Jansen is in danger of losing his job next year to a guy that Atkins acquired so I have no idea why youíre using him to try and strengthen your argument.

    I have never engaged you on your 100 loss season point so I donít know why youíre bringing it up.

    Youíre not good at debate and itís clear you just want to say your piece and have nobody dispute it. You also call your opinions facts which is laughable. We can agree to disagree here and just enjoy watching the 6th best farm in the MLB continue to develop after Vladdy, Bo and Biggio have all graduated. I still donít expect you to give this regime their props on the farm though.
    Never said they canít build a farm. I said they cannot build a division winner in the ALE.

    Please be more specific about something I said is a fact but you think is just my opinion.

  8. #578
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Never said they canít build a farm. I said they cannot build a division winner in the ALE.

    Please be more specific about something I said is a fact but you think is just my opinion.
    Then say that theyíve built a great farm. Last time I asked you to say it directly you refused to do so. 6th best in the majors with Vladdy, Bo and Biggio all graduated now. Thatís a pretty great farm.

    Your last couple of posts youíve referred to your opinion as fact. Itís right above these posts.

  9. #579
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Then say that theyíve built a great farm. Last time I asked you to say it directly you refused to do so. 6th best in the majors with Vladdy, Bo and Biggio all graduated now. Thatís a pretty great farm.

    Your last couple of posts youíve referred to your opinion as fact. Itís right above these posts.
    No I referred to facts as facts.

    Iíll wait.

  10. #580
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Regardless of your opinion, my facts are true. They could have kept the window open by keeping those two guys. They could have all the same assets if they picked Pearson where warmoth was picked. They could have decided to trade the farm for 2 torp and go for it next season if they did the above.
    Facts. Now tell me how your opinion supersedes them.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    No I referred to facts as facts.

    Iíll wait.
    I'm actually curious here. Are you not able to differentiate fact from opinion or is your ego just a little hurt? We're both sharing our opinions on situations that never happened. There is no fact to back up anything that you said in the above because none of it ever even happened. You even call my opinion what it is, an opinion yet yours is fact? You're just being ridiculous now.

    I should also note that I never said they couldn't have the same assets had they picked Pearson where Warmoth was. I said they couldn't have both Edwin and Pearson in a hypothetical situation because Pearson was used with the pick they received for Edwin. That is actually a fact because that happened. Your counter of "well they could've just used the pick they used on Warmoth for Pearson" is a possibility but not a fact because we have no way of knowing if they would've done that.

    You still can't bring yourself to say that these guys can build a great farm which is actually adorable at this point. In 4 years they've built a farm that was arguably better than anything AA ever created in his 9 years here.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  11. #581
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    It was me. I was defending ownership in that they were true to their word in spending big with both Ricardi and AA, and that they have spent with Shapiro so far too, but nothing that has helped us win any games (except happ for a bit).

    I donít see the gymnastics there.
    So your definition of spending with Shapiro is pretty much not cutting salary the first year after going to the playoffs for the first time in 22 years? Because almost all of that money came from commitments that Alex took on.

    Spending money because you pretty much have to isnt what I think of when the conversation is supposed to be about opening up the wallet.

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    Last edited by Jamiecballer; 09-20-2019 at 09:58 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  12. #582
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    So your definition of spending with Shapiro is pretty much not cutting salary the first year after going to the playoffs for the first time in 22 years? Because almost all of that money came from commitments that Alex took on.

    Spending money because you pretty much have to isnt what I think of when the conversation is supposed to be about opening up the wallet.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    I see the confusion now. I was referring to the FA spending and the expensive releases. Theyíve spent some money, but again - nothing that has helped us put up wins.

    Youíre arguing that they havenít let this FO spend? I donít think this FO has wanted to spend. Theyíre losing on purpose.

  13. #583
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    I'm actually curious here. Are you not able to differentiate fact from opinion or is your ego just a little hurt? We're both sharing our opinions on situations that never happened. There is no fact to back up anything that you said in the above because none of it ever even happened. You even call my opinion what it is, an opinion yet yours is fact? You're just being ridiculous now.

    I should also note that I never said they couldn't have the same assets had they picked Pearson where Warmoth was. I said they couldn't have both Edwin and Pearson in a hypothetical situation because Pearson was used with the pick they received for Edwin. That is actually a fact because that happened. Your counter of "well they could've just used the pick they used on Warmoth for Pearson" is a possibility but not a fact because we have no way of knowing if they would've done that.

    You still can't bring yourself to say that these guys can build a great farm which is actually adorable at this point. In 4 years they've built a farm that was arguably better than anything AA ever created in his 9 years here.
    Keeping dosh and enc in the middle of the lineup would keep the window open - fact.
    Could have had all the same assets if they picked Pearson where warmoth was picked - fact.
    Could have been in a position to pull an AA lame duck move this coming year if they did the above - fact.

    Not sure what youíre even arguing here. Bickering really.

  14. #584
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    Honestly I donít want to say the farm thing only because youíre trying to make me say it. Iíve never said they canít build a farm. Actually perpetual rebuild is my main concern which involves pretty much pure farm building and not much else.

  15. #585
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    The argument that they could have picked Pearson with the Warmoth pick is pretty dumb. Maybe AA could have picked Mookie Betts before he drafted 10 players in that draft. Maybe Riccardi should have picked Mike Trout instead of Chad Jenkins...and so on and so forth

    Maybe Shapiro can build a time machine and go to the future and see what players are going to pan out. Anyone have a Delorean kicking around?

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