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  1. #1
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    Swap Zeke and CP3: What likely happens?

    Were Chris Paul to have played under Chuck Daly with the original Bad Boys, and Isaih Thomas played with the Clippers, what do you think the difference would be?



    Would the Clippers have done any better? Do they make the finals? Or get to the conference finals last year?

    Would the Pistons have perhaps won in 88 as well? Or lost in either 89 or 90? Is it still a 4-game sweep in 91?
    Why did the chicken cross the basketball court?
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  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by JasonJohnHorn View Post
    Were Chris Paul to have played under Chuck Daly with the original Bad Boys, and Isaih Thomas played with the Clippers, what do you think the difference would be?



    Would the Clippers have done any better? Do they make the finals? Or get to the conference finals last year?

    Would the Pistons have perhaps won in 88 as well? Or lost in either 89 or 90? Is it still a 4-game sweep in 91?
    It's tempting to use advanced statistics and describe Paul's superior overall game and make the claim that the Pistons win 3-4 titles instead of 2 but my gut just doesn't buy it. Isiah was a leader for those Pistons teams and I'm more tempted to go the other way and say Zeke would have inspired the Clippers to go on a title run but the reality is even when the Clippers fall short Paul has been playing well the whole time. He had some lowlights against the Thunder 2 years ago but he's consistently playing like a star and being let down by his supporting cast.


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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    It's tempting to use advanced statistics and describe Paul's superior overall game and make the claim that the Pistons win 3-4 titles instead of 2 but my gut just doesn't buy it. Isiah was a leader for those Pistons teams and I'm more tempted to go the other way and say Zeke would have inspired the Clippers to go on a title run but the reality is even when the Clippers fall short Paul has been playing well the whole time. He had some lowlights against the Thunder 2 years ago but he's consistently playing like a star and being let down by his supporting cast.
    I think the Pistons win 3-4 titles and Clippers not as good.

    I remember how Zeke used to mean mug his teammates and get in their faces. They always took it as a personal challenge and stepped up with their defense. Pauls the same kind of player as Zeke in that reguard but IMO Paul is also the better player.

    Paul tries do that in LA and his teammates sulk. Dont see how Zeke would make a difference.

    One thing though that should be noted is in Zekes day when he challenged his teammates they could practically kill someone and only get a foul call nowadays they get suspended w/o pay and fined. That does play a part.
    Last edited by McAllen Tx; 03-24-2016 at 09:58 AM.

  4. #4
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    Put CP3 (prolly top 3 best defensive PG ever) on that defense??

    Its lights out for the league.

  5. #5
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    CP3 would have a ring and IT probably does not. Although that's assuming that CP3 would be as effective as a floor spacer with his shooting from distance. If he was growing up in the 70s instead of the 90s/00s he may not have put as much emphasis on his distance shooting in which case, not sure if there'd be any difference. Vice versa for Isiah, if he grew up in the more modern era he may be a better distance shooter.



  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by McAllen Tx View Post
    I think the Pistons win 3-4 titles and Clippers not as good.

    I remember how Zeke used to mean mug his teammates and get in their faces. They always took it as a personal challenge and stepped up with their defense. Pauls the same kind of player as Zeke in that reguard but IMO Paul is also the better player.

    Paul tries do that in LA and his teammates sulk. Dont see how Zeke would make a difference.

    One thing though that should be noted is in Zekes day when he challenged his teammates they could practically kill someone and only get a foul call nowadays they get suspended w/o pay and fined. That does play a part.
    I think part of why that worked for Zeke in DET and not so much for CP3 in LAC is because Chuck Daly was such a great leader. You are right that players could be more aggressive, but I think having a guy like Daly pushing the team helped.

    It also helped that you had guys like Laimbeer and Dumars who didn't need to be pushed, and guys like Rodman who took the mentorship offered by Daly and Zeke seriously.

    I think players these days have softer skin. If they get criticized they take it personally. This based on media reports, which are obviously hard to confirm, but you hear about guys being upset that certain players don't high-five them, or from guys like Howard, who have yet to win anything and prove themselves, yet complain to the media during a playoff run that they don't get enough touches. Nobody on the Pistons was complaining that they didn't get enough touches.


    I think the difference to is the kind of leadership. I know Zeke had a way of alienating players in a mean spirited way. Adrian Dantley, for example. Aguire was great, but they could have won just as easily with Dantley, but Zeke had apparently gone behind Dantley's back and poisoned the locker room for him. CP3 has more compassion. He'll ride somebody, but I don't get the feeling like he would sell somebody up the river. Given that Zeke had apparently spread rumours about Magic, and froze out MJ at the All-Star game, and threw his daughter under the bus when he got taken to the hospital for ODing on pills. He seems like an @$$ that really had a way of hazing players. I think it was Daly, not Zeke, who was the leader of the team, and I think Daly would have done much better with CP3 than Zeke.


    Also, CP3's defense.... just wow. Not to mention he is a more efficient scorer. He also is unlikely to decline as quickly as Zeke. Zeke his a high peak, and then came down hard. Once 30 year hit, he was no longer the same player.

    The Clips, on the other hand, I think would not have responded well to Zeke's hazing approach to leadership. I feel like DaJ would just crumble at that.
    Why did the chicken cross the basketball court?
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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by KnicksorBust View Post
    It's tempting to use advanced statistics and describe Paul's superior overall game and make the claim that the Pistons win 3-4 titles instead of 2 but my gut just doesn't buy it. Isiah was a leader for those Pistons teams and I'm more tempted to go the other way and say Zeke would have inspired the Clippers to go on a title run but the reality is even when the Clippers fall short Paul has been playing well the whole time. He had some lowlights against the Thunder 2 years ago but he's consistently playing like a star and being let down by his supporting cast.
    Sometimes stats including advanced stats lead us on a wild goose chase. Its easy to be persuaded by stats but stats can be misleading. Isiah was a killer. If I'm trying to win a ring (not put up the best stats) I would take Isiah over Chris Paul and I would not even think twice. It was a different era. Isiah was in a different situation. The Bad Boys played to win and Isiah was by far their driving force.
    Last edited by SLY WILLIAMS; 03-25-2016 at 02:24 PM.
    I'm always happy to discuss anything from hoops, to hockey, to reality TV with anyone that is polite regardless of their opinion. With that said if you are disrespectful, dishonest, or an extremist type poster I may not waste my time replying to you.

  8. #8
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    Defensively, Zeke doesn't touch CP3.
    Offensively, CP3 makes his team better than Zeke could ever have or had.

    Some of you can question CP3's toughness (really? he's one of the toughest players in the game in terms of mental capacity.)

    You can't even question CP3's leadership. It's consistently been ranked highly.

    CP3 has had trouble with NBA success but Zeke wouldn't have done any better IMO.
    CP3 is the better player. A backcourt of Dumars+CP3? I hope you guys know how good that is.. probably the best defensive backcourt in NBA history.

    Btw, read what Dantley (one of the genuine players out there) said about Isiah.
    Last edited by FlashBolt; 03-25-2016 at 03:05 PM.

  9. #9
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    I'm sure whatever Dantley said was driven by his personal disdain for Isiah not really an unbiased judgment of Isiah as a player. Dantley held Isiah responsible for his being traded. I do not know if Isiah played a role in the trade or not but Dantley never really fit the Bad Boys. Dantley was great at what he did (drive and get to the FT line) but the team had a much different dynamic with him off the floor. Isiah was hated by several players. So was Laimbeer. So was Mahorn. So was Rodman. They were the Badboys not the Choirboys.
    I'm always happy to discuss anything from hoops, to hockey, to reality TV with anyone that is polite regardless of their opinion. With that said if you are disrespectful, dishonest, or an extremist type poster I may not waste my time replying to you.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by FlashBolt View Post
    Defensively, Zeke doesn't touch CP3.
    Offensively, CP3 makes his team better than Zeke could ever have or had.

    Some of you can question CP3's toughness (really? he's one of the toughest players in the game in terms of mental capacity.)

    You can't even question CP3's leadership. It's consistently been ranked highly.

    CP3 has had trouble with NBA success but Zeke wouldn't have done any better IMO.
    CP3 is the better player. A backcourt of Dumars+CP3? I hope you guys know how good that is.. probably the best defensive backcourt in NBA history.

    Btw, read what Dantley (one of the genuine players out there) said about Isiah.


    Nothing wrong with thinking CP3 is better then Zeke but telling people to look at what AD says is kind of silly. AD and Zeke both wanted the Pistons to be their team. It been widely reported that they didn't get along and had a power struggle for the team. AD got traded b/c of it. Zeke won back to back titles after he left. AD has reason to be bitter.
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  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLY WILLIAMS View Post
    Sometimes stats including advanced stats lead us on a wild goose chase. Its easy to be persuaded by stats but stats can be misleading. Isiah was a killer. If I'm trying to win a ring (not put up the best stats) I would take Isiah over Chris Paul and I would not even think twice. It was a different era. Isiah was in a different situation. The Bad Boys played to win and Isiah was by far their driving force.

    CP3 is an amazing player. I have no problem with people saying they would take CP3 over Zeke. I do think Zeke had better offensive take over ability and has had those signature moments that have eluded CP3 (25 on one leg in the 4th of an NBA finals game, 16 in 90 seconds at the end of a close out game, etc). Cp3 really does nothing wrong on the basketball floor though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps08-09 Champ View Post
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLY WILLIAMS View Post
    I'm sure whatever Dantley said was driven by his personal disdain for Isiah not really an unbiased judgment of Isiah as a player. Dantley held Isiah responsible for his being traded. I do not know if Isiah played a role in the trade or not but Dantley never really fit the Bad Boys. Dantley was great at what he did (drive and get to the FT line) but the team had a much different dynamic with him off the floor. Isiah was hated by several players. So was Laimbeer. So was Mahorn. So was Rodman. They were the Badboys not the Choirboys.
    I get that but I just don't see how Isiah was really any better than CP3 at any valuable asset of the game. Defensively/offensively, it's not even close when you consider the value CP3 brings. So while advanced statistics may misconstrue what would really happen, saying Isiah was a killer isn't a better case. I'm not even sure if Pistons would have beaten the Lakers in the 89 Finals if not for Magic's hamstring.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by ewing View Post
    Nothing wrong with thinking CP3 is better then Zeke but telling people to look at what AD says is kind of silly. AD and Zeke both wanted the Pistons to be their team. It been widely reported that they didn't get along and had a power struggle for the team. AD got traded b/c of it. Zeke won back to back titles after he left. AD has reason to be bitter.
    That's my point, though. What kind of leader was Zeke really back then if that's what we're talking about here? Dantley was still a very serviceable All-Star type player. It's not like he was some busboy just sticking by. Just the totality of it all, I don't see how Zeke was/is more valuable than CP3. As a scorer in flashes, I think Zeke was a better scorer but that doesn't necessarily translate to a better team offense. Defensively, I don't even think it's close. Dumars+Zeke got things done defensively. CP3+Dumars would be devastating... Just picture that.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLY WILLIAMS View Post
    Sometimes stats including advanced stats lead us on a wild goose chase. Its easy to be persuaded by stats but stats can be misleading. Isiah was a killer. If I'm trying to win a ring (not put up the best stats) I would take Isiah over Chris Paul and I would not even think twice. It was a different era. Isiah was in a different situation. The Bad Boys played to win and Isiah was by far their driving force.
    I think of all the point guards in the league today, CP3 is the one who would have thrived best in that era. They let you rips guys arms off to get a steal. CP3 can get more without that; and he'd have the drive to go balls out.

    I agree with your point about the era, but I think CP3 is the guy of guy who would have been at home then. I remember watching him in the playoffs against the Mavs (08) sent Dampier and Diop crashing into CP3 overtly and intentionally after the ball had gone up (real cheap shots that weren't called flagrant for some reason). CP3 just bounced back up.


    He'd thrive in the late 80's/early 90's.
    Why did the chicken cross the basketball court?
    Because he heard the refs were blowing fowls.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by SLY WILLIAMS View Post
    I'm sure whatever Dantley said was driven by his personal disdain for Isiah not really an unbiased judgment of Isiah as a player. Dantley held Isiah responsible for his being traded. I do not know if Isiah played a role in the trade or not but Dantley never really fit the Bad Boys. Dantley was great at what he did (drive and get to the FT line) but the team had a much different dynamic with him off the floor. Isiah was hated by several players. So was Laimbeer. So was Mahorn. So was Rodman. They were the Badboys not the Choirboys.
    Dantley's disdain for Zeke is well supported by other players, like MJ, Pippen, and even Magic, as well as many others (Bird included). And these are guys who have high praise for Dumars and others, so it isn't just about biased rivalries.

    Dont' forget, when Zeke OD'd on pills, he said it was his own daughter who was getting help. Zeke has proven himself time and again to be a grade-A @$$#ol3.
    Why did the chicken cross the basketball court?
    Because he heard the refs were blowing fowls.

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