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  1. #3706
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluefire View Post
    If.you believe Baez to be bad or overrated what.makes you think.cashman would.take Baez for miller?
    Because different GM's value certain attributes more than others. So Cashman may overlook the awful approach of Baez in favor of the great defense and quality power potential. Also Didi Gregorius is their current Shortstop and he likely isn't a long term solution.

    I can tell you with 100 percent certainty though I want nothing to do with Baez getting playoff starts. He has an approach that is just begging to get taken advantage of by quality Met, National and Giant pitching. So if we can turn that player into the solution for the lefty reliever hole I'm more than willing to do so.

  2. #3707
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    Quote Originally Posted by TimbrH2001 View Post
    Starting pitching is probably going to become a real issue sooner than later. May have a couple rotation spots that need filling in a couple years. What's that gonna cost us? Organizational depth could really start thinning out if they decide annual overpays to 'go for it' at the trade deadline is a wise idea. I have no problems at all hanging up the phone with The Yankees if their demands for their relief pitchers constitutes an overpay.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
    I'm not saying make a dumb trade just to make one. The point was that a high end reliever can make a difference in October and fears about depleting the system are overstating things.

    Starting pitching wise, the Cubs are in as good a position as almost any team, but like most teams they'll need to turn at least 3 rotation spots before 2018. If Jake leaves the Cubs should have money to fill at least 1 of those 3 spots via FA. I don't think giving up a good prospect for a reliever now will mean that they can't make a trade to acquire a good starting pitcher in the next 18 months either. Hopefully the Cubs will be able to fill the 3rd of those 3 spots internally.

    Again, I have no issue with saying let's not overpay like crazy. I don't mind a slight overpay and I do think having another elite reliever with Rondon could be important 4 months from now.

  3. #3708
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    So if a big name reliever is acquired who do you guys think is the most likely to be dealt:

    -Soler
    -Baez
    -Schwarber (although I'm sure the odds of Kyle being dealt, especially for a reliever, are pretty slim)
    -Almora
    -Torres

    I'm not going to include Vogelbach on the list since I doubt he is the main piece of a Yankee reliever deal (or any big name reliever deal in general). For Miller I'd gladly include anyone on the list outside of Schwarber. Although it wouldn't shock me at all to see Soler dealt and then next season make the trade look questionable with an OPS of around 840 or so.

  4. #3709
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    I'm not saying make a dumb trade just to make one. The point was that a high end reliever can make a difference in October and fears about depleting the system are overstating things.

    Starting pitching wise, the Cubs are in as good a position as almost any team, but like most teams they'll need to turn at least 3 rotation spots before 2018. If Jake leaves the Cubs should have money to fill at least 1 of those 3 spots via FA. I don't think giving up a good prospect for a reliever now will mean that they can't make a trade to acquire a good starting pitcher in the next 18 months either. Hopefully the Cubs will be able to fill the 3rd of those 3 spots internally.

    Again, I have no issue with saying let's not overpay like crazy. I don't mind a slight overpay and I do think having another elite reliever with Rondon could be important 4 months from now.
    I agree with this. And I also want to add that I think what some hear will consider a slight overpay I do not think the Cubs FO will feel the same way. I feel there are many people here who greatly overvalue prospects. Losing one or two of them is not going to break the minor league system. Getting an elite lefty relief pitcher could help this team greatly. I realize so far this FO has not show a willingness to deal prospects for major league talent, but I also feel this is the first time this FO has been in the position to really go for it. Last year being 7 games or so back at the trade deadline it did not make sense to lose minor league talent to go bib in the trade market for someone because there was always that fear they would play one play in game and be done. This year with the division to be won, I expect them to be way more aggressive.

  5. #3710
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    So Miller AND chapman .... That'd be awesome ... overkill imo

    But


    What gets it done?
    Soler, vogelbach, Happ and say one of our bp arms like Grimm?

  6. #3711
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    Quote Originally Posted by petrey10 View Post
    So Miller AND chapman .... That'd be awesome ... overkill imo

    But


    What gets it done?
    Soler, vogelbach, Happ and say one of our bp arms like Grimm?
    I really like Miller, but I think Chapman alone gets the job done if they don't limit him to the closer role. If you want to go with an "overkill" option Chapman and Doolittle would be cheaper than Miller/Chapman and you get nearly the same thing in return.

  7. #3712
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prior22 View Post
    So if a big name reliever is acquired who do you guys think is the most likely to be dealt:

    -Soler
    -Baez
    -Schwarber (although I'm sure the odds of Kyle being dealt, especially for a reliever, are pretty slim)
    -Almora
    -Torres

    I'm not going to include Vogelbach on the list since I doubt he is the main piece of a Yankee reliever deal (or any big name reliever deal in general). For Miller I'd gladly include anyone on the list outside of Schwarber. Although it wouldn't shock me at all to see Soler dealt and then next season make the trade look questionable with an OPS of around 840 or so.
    Only Soler and Torres off your list because the other 3 (Schwarber, Almora and Baez) aren't expendable pieces IMO. I'd also include Happ because he's still a ways away from being ML ready and he's still got some of that 1st Round shine that may attract teams.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

  8. #3713
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    Quote Originally Posted by rcal10 View Post
    I agree with this. And I also want to add that I think what some hear will consider a slight overpay I do not think the Cubs FO will feel the same way. I feel there are many people here who greatly overvalue prospects. Losing one or two of them is not going to break the minor league system. Getting an elite lefty relief pitcher could help this team greatly. I realize so far this FO has not show a willingness to deal prospects for major league talent, but I also feel this is the first time this FO has been in the position to really go for it. Last year being 7 games or so back at the trade deadline it did not make sense to lose minor league talent to go bib in the trade market for someone because there was always that fear they would play one play in game and be done. This year with the division to be won, I expect them to be way more aggressive.
    Can you really blame those who do overvalue our prospects (you can probably put me in that camp even though I'm not against trading prospects as long as they're smart trades with expendable pieces) when almost every prospect who we bring up ends up positively contributing? Hitting on cheap cost controlled talent is such a huge part of this game, even for the big market teams.

    FWIW, really diggin the convo on this subject because it really gets me thinking hard about how GMs and organizations should (or shouldn't) weigh decisions in both the short term and long term.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk
    Last edited by TimbrH2001; 06-16-2016 at 11:03 AM.

  9. #3714
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    People used to say black people weren't good enough to play QB, but they could play other positions. Is that racist? Is it not racist because they said black people can still play some positions in football, they just aren't good QB's?


    You stated multiple times that your opinion he won't be very good and your opinion was based only on him being from Japan. Call it whatever you want to. Call it racism, call it idiocy. Whatever you want to call it, it's wrong and absurd.
    There are a lot of reasons to be skeptical of pitchers coming from Japan, that don't constitute racism.

    * the competition is lower in Japan
    * they get overworked, sometimes dramatically
    * they're throwing a smaller baseball
    * the season is shorter
    * they work in 6-man rotations
    * travel isn't as extreme

    And some would add to that list, the track record of guys coming over to MLB from Japan isn't all that great. I understand you'd dispute that last one, though.

    Anyway, it's unlikely anyone is against Otani strictly because of his race.

  10. #3715
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    Quote Originally Posted by Prior22 View Post
    Because different GM's value certain attributes more than others. So Cashman may overlook the awful approach of Baez in favor of the great defense and quality power potential. Also Didi Gregorius is their current Shortstop and he likely isn't a long term solution.

    I can tell you with 100 percent certainty though I want nothing to do with Baez getting playoff starts. He has an approach that is just begging to get taken advantage of by quality Met, National and Giant pitching. So if we can turn that player into the solution for the lefty reliever hole I'm more than willing to do so.
    What makes you think Theo doesn't value Baez' defensive versatility? Everything you've ever heard from Maddon about the guy is gushing in positivity. I don't think it's wise to ignore what our organization wants or doesn't want just because it may be something you personally want or don't want. I'd be shocked if Theo ends up thinking Baez is worth trading for a bullpen arm.

    Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

  11. #3716
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    Quote Originally Posted by davearm View Post
    There are a lot of reasons to be skeptical of pitchers coming from Japan, that don't constitute racism.

    * the competition is lower in Japan
    * they get overworked, sometimes dramatically
    * they're throwing a smaller baseball
    * the season is shorter
    * they work in 6-man rotations
    * travel isn't as extreme

    And some would add to that list, the track record of guys coming over to MLB from Japan isn't all that great. I understand you'd dispute that last one, though.

    Anyway, it's unlikely anyone is against Otani strictly because of his race.
    And he mentioned exactly zero of those things as his primary concern about Otani. I think he mentioned the 6 man rotation at one point.

    The guy said pitchers from Japan haven't been good except for Nomo, Dacish, and Dice-K. Then he realized Dice-K wasn't that good and said Japanese starting pitchers aren't that good in America because they are over hyped and over paid. He said a Japanese pitcher has a mid rotation ceiling in MLB by saying at best they are a Hammel replacement, not an Arrieta replacement.

    I'd be glad to talk about the differences between NPB and MLB, but you know that's not the conversation that took place.

  12. #3717
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by davearm View Post
    There are a lot of reasons to be skeptical of pitchers coming from Japan, that don't constitute racism.

    * the competition is lower in Japan
    * they get overworked, sometimes dramatically
    * they're throwing a smaller baseball
    * the season is shorter
    * they work in 6-man rotations
    * travel isn't as extreme

    And some would add to that list, the track record of guys coming over to MLB from Japan isn't all that great. I understand you'd dispute that last one, though.

    Anyway, it's unlikely anyone is against Otani strictly because of his race.
    And he mentioned exactly zero of those things as his primary concern about Otani. I think he mentioned the 6 man rotation at one point.

    The guy said pitchers from Japan haven't been good except for Nomo, Dacish, and Dice-K. Then he realized Dice-K wasn't that good and said Japanese starting pitchers aren't that good in America because they are over hyped and over paid. He said a Japanese pitcher has a mid rotation ceiling in MLB by saying at best they are a Hammel replacement, not an Arrieta replacement.

    I'd be glad to talk about the differences between NPB and MLB, but you know that's not the conversation that took place.
    "Otah and Nomo were the only ones to throw 1000 innings which shouldn't be hard to do for these guys but it is because of the heavy workload they get in America and they can't handle it. "

    And no more than a post or two later did I talk about 5 man rotations. Get off the race train and actually read what I have written.

  13. #3718
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    Quote Originally Posted by dmb101588 View Post
    I don't really like these Asian pitchers. They all get hurt and hurt very quickly. None of them live up to the hype. Naturally Nomo is the exception and then Darvish and Dice-k but even those two are questionable.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmb101588 View Post
    My point is still the same. They come over now way overhyped and can't even get what is expected of them.

    Just saying, if the dude is gonna come here, he's not an Arrieta replacement, more like a Hammel replacement, basically a 3-4 guy.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmb101588 View Post
    I don't need to me extremely informed when pitchers don't pan out as much as they are hyped. All we know is he can throw 100 and sits in the mid 90's and had great stats as a 20 yr old in Japan. It's all talk.

    I'll be around in 2017-18 to get back to this topic. When he's on his first Tommy John after 60 innings and a over 5.5 ERA on whatever team then we can come back to this. If he's 3/4ths of what Nomo was then I'll eat my words. But I will definitely not believe the future comparisons that people will have. He will probably be compared to the next Fernandez or Hernandez or Strasburg. We know he's already "the next Yu Darvish"
    Quote Originally Posted by dmb101588 View Post
    I said all these pitchers that come over here are not worth the grand price we pay and don't provide the talent to back it up. They either get hurt or bust. If u can't separate the definition of overpay and overhype compared to guys that aren't then I'm sorry.

    Buenas noches
    These are all words you have actually written, no?

    My issue with your argument is that you are putting a ceiling on his ability or predicting failure based only on him being from Japan even though we have already seen Japanese pitchers perform at a very high level in MLB.

    He might succeed, he might fail. That's up to him and luck. TNSTAPP is true of American pitchers too. Players of all races can be overpaid, but no one is suggesting avoiding all big money Latin American free agents.

  14. #3719
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by davearm View Post
    There are a lot of reasons to be skeptical of pitchers coming from Japan, that don't constitute racism.

    * the competition is lower in Japan
    * they get overworked, sometimes dramatically
    * they're throwing a smaller baseball
    * the season is shorter
    * they work in 6-man rotations
    * travel isn't as extreme

    And some would add to that list, the track record of guys coming over to MLB from Japan isn't all that great. I understand you'd dispute that last one, though.

    Anyway, it's unlikely anyone is against Otani strictly because of his race.
    The guy said pitchers from Japan haven't been good except for Nomo, Dacish, and Dice-K. Then he realized Dice-K wasn't that good
    Actually I had said that Nomo was the exception and Darvish and dice-K but even those two are questionable. I also said that dice k could barely go 6 innings.

  15. #3720
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    Quote Originally Posted by CP_414 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by dmb101588 View Post
    I don't really like these Asian pitchers. They all get hurt and hurt very quickly. None of them live up to the hype. Naturally Nomo is the exception and then Darvish and Dice-k but even those two are questionable.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmb101588 View Post
    My point is still the same. They come over now way overhyped and can't even get what is expected of them.

    Just saying, if the dude is gonna come here, he's not an Arrieta replacement, more like a Hammel replacement, basically a 3-4 guy.
    Quote Originally Posted by dmb101588 View Post
    I don't need to me extremely informed when pitchers don't pan out as much as they are hyped. All we know is he can throw 100 and sits in the mid 90's and had great stats as a 20 yr old in Japan. It's all talk.

    I'll be around in 2017-18 to get back to this topic. When he's on his first Tommy John after 60 innings and a over 5.5 ERA on whatever team then we can come back to this. If he's 3/4ths of what Nomo was then I'll eat my words. But I will definitely not believe the future comparisons that people will have. He will probably be compared to the next Fernandez or Hernandez or Strasburg. We know he's already "the next Yu Darvish"
    Quote Originally Posted by dmb101588 View Post
    I said all these pitchers that come over here are not worth the grand price we pay and don't provide the talent to back it up. They either get hurt or bust. If u can't separate the definition of overpay and overhype compared to guys that aren't then I'm sorry.

    Buenas noches
    These are all words you have actually written, no?

    My issue with your argument is that you are putting a ceiling on his ability or predicting failure based only on him being from Japan even though we have already seen Japanese pitchers perform at a very high level in MLB.

    He might succeed, he might fail. That's up to him and luck. TNSTAPP is true of American pitchers too. Players of all races can be overpaid, but no one is suggesting avoiding all big money Latim American free agents.
    And my point all along is that it's a waste to pay huge money on someone who can't handle the workload, see my reference to dice k and not lasting long in games and talking about them not making 200 innings because of their prior workloads being less than 200 innings. I'd much rather pay an American pitcher with a history of pitching 200+innings and lasting long into games than someone we know 0 about.

    So I don't like them, it's not worth the risk. Idc if they are from Asia or Australia or the Middle East.

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