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  1. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Pretty good? Never totally bottomed out? To what end?

    I totally get where you're coming from, I think we just have VASTLY different expectations. And a very different understanding of what it takes to win the ALE.
    If your employer mandates you build a winning a team without an embarrassing stretch of seasons with 50-60 wins to give you the draft capital to get there... you have to explore ways to maximize profit while getting better. It is a professional reality. To be honest it is a realistic one too.

  2. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    That made me laugh too. In hindsight the Astros did it the right way and are now the most talented team in the league. The Indians are about 7 major pieces behind the Astros.
    You can cry financials but the Athletics aren't too bad either.

    Honestly I read that article and it doesn't give me confidence that he is a torp type baseball executive. That article reads very much like "he was ok I guess... if we Factor in the circumstances...". Like "he never lost 100 games so that's a good thing right?!"

    Seriously guys... with him and Atkins we do not have any great baseball minds in our FO. And you seriously think we can win the ALE without one? The best thing we have going is our scouting department that is lead by a former Bsox GM cherrington.

    Mediocre doesn't cut it for me. We went through those types of guys for years with the raptors and leafs - things only turned around once they hired the top minds in the given sports.

    So yeah, there is nothing I want more than a top executive (with winning baseball pedigree) to replace these guys.
    Rays, Yankees, BoSox. You have to be a genius to beat these geniuses.
    That's one thing that concerns me is that folks sight Cleveland as being a good team. That's because they don't have to play the Red Sox, Yankees, and Rays every single season. There sure is quite a bit of parity in the AL Central and West not so much with the AL East.

    Leiweke recognized hiring great minds for MLSE and look at what it's done - produced a very good Leafs team, a championship MLS team, and a champion Raptors team. I swear there are probably some folks bellyaching that Ujiri traded a few years of control of Derozan for a championship year of Leonard. It's the pretty much the same darn thing AA tried to do. And I'm pretty confident Ujiri is capable of building up another championship team again.

    But there are several ways to skin a cat so let's see if Shapiro can make this team a playoff team.

  3. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanton View Post
    ...Atkins is admitting to his mistakes so he is making steps in the right direction...no more signing old pitchers in the hope that they have some updside or can provide them with innings at low cost
    This I want to see - if these guys can actually attract or even trade for a legit MLer. Their track record says no and that they've had to rely on picking up (via trade) budding prospects and hitting on them. If that's the route we're going on here I'm afraid those years of control will be coming due when the wave of pitching arrives.

  4. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    This I want to see - if these guys can actually attract or even trade for a legit MLer. Their track record says no and that they've had to rely on picking up (via trade) budding prospects and hitting on them. If that's the route we're going on here I'm afraid those years of control will be coming due when the wave of pitching arrives.
    I agree we still need to see that from them.

  5. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    That's one thing that concerns me is that folks sight Cleveland as being a good team. That's because they don't have to play the Red Sox, Yankees, and Rays every single season. There sure is quite a bit of parity in the AL Central and West not so much with the AL East.

    Leiweke recognized hiring great minds for MLSE and look at what it's done - produced a very good Leafs team, a championship MLS team, and a champion Raptors team. I swear there are probably some folks bellyaching that Ujiri traded a few years of control of Derozan for a championship year of Leonard. It's the pretty much the same darn thing AA tried to do. And I'm pretty confident Ujiri is capable of building up another championship team again.

    But there are several ways to skin a cat so let's see if Shapiro can make this team a playoff team.
    I will say my initial observation of Ujiri based on interviews was that he seems like a "company guy" and does exactly share his conviction, rather states what the suits want him to say. He did a marvelous job in squashing that initial perception.

    I will also state that, the Kawhi traded aside, Ujiri's biggest assertion was for the Raptors to have their own developmental team. He has claimed he made it a mandate from ownership in accepting the position. Raptors don't win without guys like Siakam and VanVleet. Those talents were born out of a scouting and developmental process that ensured the organization has a foundation to draft raw ability, regardless of draft position, and develop it into pro-level contributors.

    Scouting and development aren't sexy, but so essential to successful sports organizations. I don't see evidence that this group doesn't prioritize those things. As such, using the Raptors as a comparison for what MLB teams to do, really falls flat. Not to mention that conditions and realities of each league are very different when it comes to draft and development.

  6. #321
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    did you actually read the article Jamie? he was trying to see both sides, to give a balanced presentation, as a good reporter does, but he ended up saying that after 11 years in the job he ended up possibly the most hated man in cleveland according to the vocal minority or maybe Majority.

    Did you read the article?

    his conclusion was: "Shapiro’s kind of been the face of that for 15 years now, so I think a lot of fans were happy to see him leave.”


    not "on the whole I think he did a good job"

    which is how you and RJ tried to spin it and if you insist on lying in face of those facts, then I'll lose all respect for you

    Paul Dolan removed him from baseball operations for gods sake

    and chong is 100% correct this is not the AL central, we play against the big boys, if you think Mr Mediocre is gonna cut it youll be waiting a long time

    there is a reason why Ive been critical for so long because I saw this with the wilpons, and shatkins is just as bad

    stop being RJ's biotch and tell the truth JamieC what was Maisels conclusion?

    was it not that anyone with half a brain or a hint of honesty, knew he had to go


    im literally incredulous that you of all people are trying to spin what he said
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 08-20-2019 at 06:03 PM.

  7. #322
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    I will say my initial observation of Ujiri based on interviews was that he seems like a "company guy" and does exactly share his conviction, rather states what the suits want him to say. He did a marvelous job in squashing that initial perception.

    I will also state that, the Kawhi traded aside, Ujiri's biggest assertion was for the Raptors to have their own developmental team. He has claimed he made it a mandate from ownership in accepting the position. Raptors don't win without guys like Siakam and VanVleet. Those talents were born out of a scouting and developmental process that ensured the organization has a foundation to draft raw ability, regardless of draft position, and develop it into pro-level contributors.

    Scouting and development aren't sexy, but so essential to successful sports organizations. I don't see evidence that this group doesn't prioritize those things. As such, using the Raptors as a comparison for what MLB teams to do, really falls flat. Not to mention that conditions and realities of each league are very different when it comes to draft and development.
    More-so the Raptors don't have a chance of even making it to the Finals without Kawhi. Who's more replaceable Kawhi or Vanfleet and Siakam? I'm pretty sure there are other players around the league who could have done the same thing Vanfleet and Siakam did and still win the title. Kawhi - not so much. And that's kind of the point I'm trying to make. Ujiri took a gamble and won. AA did pretty much the same thing and he lost.

    So what does this FO do from here? Are they going to go target Kawhi's (like AA did) or go after Vanfleets and Siakams? My feeling tells me the later - and no one is saying it's wrong either. Sure they can also try to acquire big assets through the draft or trade for off the radar prospects that might pop...my concern is what will happen to Vlad and company when those specs arrive?

    Also I think that this FO does put an emphasis on scouting and development. We just don't know how it's going to pan out. At the end of the year when the farm rankings come out we should have a good read on how these guys scout and draft because they will have 3 years of their picks in the farm. There are a couple of 2016 draft picks playing in The Show already.

  8. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    did you actually read the article Jamie? he was trying to see both sides, to give a balanced presentation, as a good reporter does, but he ended up saying that after 11 years in the job he ended up possibly the most hated man in cleveland according to the vocal minority or maybe Majority.

    Did you read the article?

    his conclusion was: "Shapiro’s kind of been the face of that for 15 years now, so I think a lot of fans were happy to see him leave.”


    not "on the whole I think he did a good job"

    which is how you and RJ tried to spin it and if you insist on lying in face of those facts, then I'll lose all respect for you

    Paul Dolan removed him from baseball operations for gods sake

    and chong is 100% correct this is not the AL central, we play against the big boys, if you think Mr Mediocre is gonna cut it youll be waiting a long time

    there is a reason why Ive been critical for so long because I saw this with the wilpons, and shatkins is just as bad

    stop being RJ's biotch and tell the truth JamieC what was Maisels conclusion?

    was it not that anyone with half a brain or a hint of honesty, knew he had to go


    im literally incredulous that you of all people are trying to spin what he said
    I think you have a problem with comprehension. The reporter seems to think they did a fine job. No spin. Direct quote.

    “I think there are some people in Cleveland that recognize that, given the circumstances, Shapiro did pretty well,” Meisel said

    So if the writer is saying that, he himself is saying they did pretty well also. They recognize he did pretty well. There’s really only one way to interpret that.

    And I’d like to point out your own hypocrisy. Your very first sentence says a good reporter should look at things from both sides. You are the only person here who refuses to acknowledge there is more than one perspective.

    Oh and stop saying “we” as if you’re one of us. Even if you are somewhat of a Jays fan, you aren’t a Torontotonian let alone a Canadian so you really can’t relate to us as sports fans.

  9. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    More-so the Raptors don't have a chance of even making it to the Finals without Kawhi. Who's more replaceable Kawhi or Vanfleet and Siakam? I'm pretty sure there are other players around the league who could have done the same thing Vanfleet and Siakam did and still win the title. Kawhi - not so much. And that's kind of the point I'm trying to make. Ujiri took a gamble and won. AA did pretty much the same thing and he lost.

    So what does this FO do from here? Are they going to go target Kawhi's (like AA did) or go after Vanfleets and Siakams? My feeling tells me the later - and no one is saying it's wrong either. Sure they can also try to acquire big assets through the draft or trade for off the radar prospects that might pop...my concern is what will happen to Vlad and company when those specs arrive?

    Also I think that this FO does put an emphasis on scouting and development. We just don't know how it's going to pan out. At the end of the year when the farm rankings come out we should have a good read on how these guys scout and draft because they will have 3 years of their picks in the farm. There are a couple of 2016 draft picks playing in The Show already.
    Kawhi is clearly the best player from that group, but they don't make the finals without Siakam or VanVleet.

    If the point is both GM's took risks, yah sure, it is definitely true.

    Baseball is a different sport. Where do they go from year? Keep developing Siakam's and VanVleet's would be my assertion. No single player means close to the value that a single BB player means.
    Last edited by pebloemer; 08-20-2019 at 08:02 PM.

  10. #325
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    did you actually read the article Jamie? he was trying to see both sides, to give a balanced presentation, as a good reporter does, but he ended up saying that after 11 years in the job he ended up possibly the most hated man in cleveland according to the vocal minority or maybe Majority.

    Did you read the article?

    his conclusion was: "Shapiro’s kind of been the face of that for 15 years now, so I think a lot of fans were happy to see him leave.”


    not "on the whole I think he did a good job"

    which is how you and RJ tried to spin it and if you insist on lying in face of those facts, then I'll lose all respect for you

    Paul Dolan removed him from baseball operations for gods sake

    and chong is 100% correct this is not the AL central, we play against the big boys, if you think Mr Mediocre is gonna cut it youll be waiting a long time

    there is a reason why Ive been critical for so long because I saw this with the wilpons, and shatkins is just as bad

    stop being RJ's biotch and tell the truth JamieC what was Maisels conclusion?

    was it not that anyone with half a brain or a hint of honesty, knew he had to go


    im literally incredulous that you of all people are trying to spin what he said
    You hear that Jamie? You're my biotch!

    I also like how Sarah says I try and put a spin on Shapiro's time in Cleveland when I have never once even mentioned a word about it.

  11. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by FLeays View Post
    I am a bit skeptical of the Astro's offering of Tucker for Stroman. Something could have been built around Sanchez and Stoman with a good spec coming back (if not Tucker).
    So I said I was wondering if Tucker could have been in play with the Stroman talks, and he still could of, but It never clicked when Kenny corrected me on Tuckers service time that it was actually Kirilloff that I was thinking of and not Tucker. Got that from this article https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/ml...e-jays-trades/

    Twins expected a call back. We could have had Graterol (?) or maybe they would have budged on Kirilloff

    “Stroman was the first target and sources indicated the Twins were disappointed when Toronto didn’t give them a chance to match an offer they believed they could have outdone. The Blue Jays were rebuffed when they originally asked the Twins for either of their top prospects, Royce Lewis or Alex Kirilloff, and never called back before accepting a deal for two New York Mets pitching prospects.”

  12. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanton View Post
    So I said I was wondering if Tucker could have been in play with the Stroman talks, and he still could of, but It never clicked when Kenny corrected me on Tuckers service time that it was actually Kirilloff that I was thinking of and not Tucker. Got that from this article https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/ml...e-jays-trades/

    Twins expected a call back. We could have had Graterol (?) or maybe they would have budged on Kirilloff

    “Stroman was the first target and sources indicated the Twins were disappointed when Toronto didn’t give them a chance to match an offer they believed they could have outdone. The Blue Jays were rebuffed when they originally asked the Twins for either of their top prospects, Royce Lewis or Alex Kirilloff, and never called back before accepting a deal for two New York Mets pitching prospects.”
    You really hate these guys eh? You assume the Twins would've loved to give either Kiriloff or Lewis had they have just called back? Graterol? Come on man. I mean there's no way of proving you wrong but your speculation makes absolutely no sense. Just because Atkins says he got offered better prospects doesn't mean he got offered the cream of the crop.

  13. #328
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanton View Post
    So I said I was wondering if Tucker could have been in play with the Stroman talks, and he still could of, but It never clicked when Kenny corrected me on Tuckers service time that it was actually Kirilloff that I was thinking of and not Tucker. Got that from this article https://www.sportsnet.ca/baseball/ml...e-jays-trades/

    Twins expected a call back. We could have had Graterol (?) or maybe they would have budged on Kirilloff

    “Stroman was the first target and sources indicated the Twins were disappointed when Toronto didn’t give them a chance to match an offer they believed they could have outdone. The Blue Jays were rebuffed when they originally asked the Twins for either of their top prospects, Royce Lewis or Alex Kirilloff, and never called back before accepting a deal for two New York Mets pitching prospects.”
    I think it was Jeff Blair who said to take it with a grain of salt because the Twins are trying to save face with their fan base for not pulling the trigger on deal.

  14. #329
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    Didn’t the Twins also come out before the deadline with a list of their top prospects who weren’t available for trade? Correct me if I’m wrong but the 3 that hanton mentioned were on the list along with Balazovic.

  15. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    You really hate these guys eh? You assume the Twins would've loved to give either Kiriloff or Lewis had they have just called back? Graterol? Come on man. I mean there's no way of proving you wrong but your speculation makes absolutely no sense. Just because Atkins says he got offered better prospects doesn't mean he got offered the cream of the crop.
    So if this report is true that the Twins never got a call back it means the FO is doing a lousy lousy job. Their job is to take the best package available and if the Twins (for example) were countering with 3 low A players with just as much potential as Kay you take the Twins offer. Even then Atkins could have used the Twins offer to possibly get more out of the Mets.

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