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  1. #7951
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Yes and pelfrey's claims about a pitcher "elevating his team to hit more" ? Like wtf?

    Pelfrey - you're a bust.
    "How the hell can I make my teammates better by practicing" Allen Iverson

  2. #7952
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    I get what youíre saying. But itís still wrong. Youíre attributing value to the player based on something that they have zero control over. However, we can look at wins and player x got 20 wins, we know he had a good season sure, but it doesnít tell the whole story, not even close.

    Itís really the opposite of what youíve said Bart. He got the 20 wins because of the low fip/xfip/whip/era, not the other way around. All that 20 wins shows to me is that the pitcher left with the lead 20 times and his bullpen didnít blow it. Youíre penalizing a player for having crappy support. Doesnít matter how much of a gamer you are, if the rest of your team sucks, youíre not likely to pile up the wins.

    Remember Gustavo Chacin? He had a great winning % one year with an ERA over 5. By w-l analysis he would be better than Stroman?
    Remember Gustavo Chacin calogne? http://bluejayhunter.com/2010/10/aci...n-cologne.html

  3. #7953
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderdan22 View Post
    Dude youíre killing me. Lol

  4. #7954
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    No I'm not. Stroman still has a worse percentage than his team the last two years so no matter what you say he doesn't raise the level of his team when he pitches and aces do that. Make up whatever excuses you want about wins you want to make you feel better but it's historically true.

    Contenders don't need pitchers who pitch down to the level of a mediocre team. They want pitchers who raise the level of the team their on. Stroman has not done that and I never said anything about him helping hitting so you're twisting words. A typical straw man

    I'm saying Aces pitch better when their teams aren't scoring. They keep them in games by pitching better Stroman obviously hasn't done that these last 2 years. If he had his winning percentage wouldn't be worse than the team as a whole

    That's not making wins a tell all stat that's just comparing Stroman 's performance to his teammates in a comparable situation which is perfectly valid. You just can't dispute it so you try and change the argument. By twisting words

    All three times he's pitched against the best teams in the league, NY, Minnesota, and Tampa he's been rocked. Let's see you straw man that.
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 07-22-2019 at 07:41 PM.

  5. #7955
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    So Stroman pitches 7, gives up no runs, gets yanked and takes a no decision. That makes him not as good as Edwin Jackson who gets spotted a 12 run lead, gives up 9 runs in the sixth but gets the win anyways. Gotcha. It just makes so much sense to hold Stroman accountable for his teams flaws. How did I not see that before?

    We should also strip any Cy Young winner of his award if he didnít lead the league in wins.
    Last edited by mike_noodles; 07-22-2019 at 07:48 PM.

  6. #7956
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    No I'm not. Stroman still has a worse percentage than his team the last two years so no matter what you say he doesn't raise the level of his team when he pitches and aces do that. Make up whatever excuses you want about wins you want to make you feel better but it's historically true.

    Contenders don't need pitchers who pitch down to the level of a mediocre team. They want pitchers who raise the level of the team their on. Stroman has not done that and I never said anything about him helping hitting so you're twisting words. A typical straw man

    I'm saying Aces pitch better when their teams aren't scoring. They keep them in games by pitching better Stroman obviously hasn't done that these last 2 years. If he had his winning percentage wouldn't be worse than the team as a whole

    That's not making wins a tell all stat that's just comparing Stroman 's performance to his teammates in a comparable situation which is perfectly valid. You just can't dispute it so you try and change the argument. By twisting words

    All three times he's pitched against the best teams in the league, NY, Minnesota, and Tampa he's been rocked. Let's see you straw man that.
    Post the numbers from his starts against those three teams. Back yourself up. Letís see it.

  7. #7957
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    numbers? pffft.

  8. #7958
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    So Stroman pitches 7, gives up no runs, gets yanked and takes a no decision. That makes him not as good as Edwin Jackson who gets spotted a 12 run lead, gives up 9 runs in the sixth but gets the win anyways. Gotcha. It just makes so much sense to hold Stroman accountable for his teams flaws. How did I not see that before?

    We should also strip any Cy Young winner of his award if he didnít lead the league in wins.
    There you go straw manning again making up stuff to obfuscate the truth tell me which game exactly did stroman pitch 7 shutout innings and get a no decision, AND Jackson give up 9 and get a win

    Which exact games?

    You're doing exactly what I said you are straw manning

    In other words LYING OUT YOUR ARSE

    We'll wait for your retraction

    I repeat against NY Minnesota and Tampa on 4-14, 5-06, and 7-14 he lost all 3 times by a cumulative score of 20-6 and that's not counting a 7-2 loss to the white Sox or an 8-2 loss to the diamondbacks.

    As I said it has nothing to do with wins it's about his failure to raise level of play to win games. You're the one trying to twist it around by straw manning.

    Or would his 2-1 loss at home to Baltimore suit you better. I'm just pointing out a true ace raises the teams level of play and obviously Stroman hasn't done that.

    You keep trying to blame the team for his failures. Didn't Cashner go 9-3 with the Orioles including beating stroman in that very same 2-1 game and aren't the Orioles much worse than the jays?

    So you keep making up lies while I'll stick to facts
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 07-22-2019 at 09:08 PM.

  9. #7959
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    Quite a word salad that was

  10. #7960
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spiderdan22 View Post
    Pretty sure I still have my vial somewhere.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  11. #7961
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    There you go straw manning again making up stuff to obfuscate the truth tell me which game exactly did stroman pitch 7 shutout innings and get a no decision, AND Jackson give up 9 and get a win

    Which exact games?

    You're doing exactly what I said you are straw manning

    In other words LYING OUT YOUR ARSE

    We'll wait for your retraction

    I repeat against NY Minnesota and Tampa on 4-14, 5-06, and 7-14 he lost all 3 times by a cumulative score of 20-6 and that's not counting a 7-2 loss to the white Sox or an 8-2 loss to the diamondbacks.

    As I said it has nothing to do with wins it's about his failure to raise level of play to win games. You're the one trying to twist it around by straw manning.

    Or would his 2-1 loss at home to Baltimore suit you better. I'm just pointing out a true ace raises the teams level of play and obviously Stroman hasn't done that.

    You keep trying to blame the team for his failures. Didn't Cashner go 9-3 with the Orioles including beating stroman in that very same 2-1 game and aren't the Orioles much worse than the jays?

    So you keep making up lies while I'll stick to facts
    yes it was an EXAGGERATED scenario to try to get you to understand how ridiculous your argument is. Stroman on April 26th and March 28 went 7 and didnít give up a run and didnít get the decision. Cmon Cashner over Stroman? In what universe? Do you even read the things that you type? By your logic Cashner is also better than Max Scherzer.

    How bout this? The guy that went only 10-9 last year was the absolute best pitcher in baseball last year. Better than the guy with 18 wins. And itís not even close. And the baseball world agreed by giving him a Cy Young. Your argument is blown up.

    Also love when you start calling people names because thatís what you do every single time you lose a disagreement.

  12. #7962
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    I haven't lost you resorted to lying and I called you on it. When you have to bald faced lie as you did you aren't winning nothing

    I just showed you that he went 0-3 against NY,Minn, and Tampa by a cumulative score of 20-6 and lost 8-2 to Arizona and 7-2 against the white sox, what does that have to do with DeGrom. You keep throwing out straw mans as if their candy. The Mets had just as bad a record as the Jays and DeGrom won twice as many games as stroman.So how does that help your argument? It actually goes a long way towards proving mine

    Degrom, a real ace. Despite playing on a team just as bad as the Blue Jays found a way to win more games than he lost and twice as many as Stroman, and win a Cy Young to boot. Stroman found a way to have a worse winning percentage than the team around him. Not only last year but this year as well

    That is exactly the point. Stroman does nothing to raise the level of his team. And NEVER HAS. So why would a contender pay a premium for a pitcher who hasn't done that?

    I didn't lose any argument, I also didn't resort to lying either. YOU DID, which you usually do when you're losing an argument. You even admitted you exaggerated. What is that if not a lie. So I didn't call you names.You Did. I just exposed it for what it was An untruth...

    You also said Edwin Jackson won a game where the jays scored 12 runs and then gave up 9 and got a win. When was that exactly. Or were you lying then too.

    The facts are that you just can't stand that I pointed the flaws in Stroman 's history You're so desperate to convince yourself that he's worth a great haul that you refuse to see both sides of the coin. Savvy fans understand it takes two to make a trade. And I just pointed out how an opposing GM will accurately question his value.

    AA knows Stroman better than anyone and they need pitching and it's been reported he hasn't even discussed getting Stroman from the Jays nor does he plan to. Could it not be that he doesn't see Stroman as any better than what he already has?

    As I've said again and again and again,playoff teams are looking for pitchers who can raise their level for the post season. If Stroman can't do that with Toronto, what makes you think he can against NY, Minn, Tampa, Houston, or LA? Teams he's 0-3 against and lost by a cumulative score of 20-6.?

    I'm sorry you don't like hearing the truth but for teams in their position it's a valid argument. And one they won't hesitate to present. And we as fans have to temper our expectations accordingly or we end up at a loss if and when he's eventually traded

    I end up looking like the bad guy because I insist on looking at things logically and dispassionately and when I end up being right more often than not you can't stand it. Maybe you should use a little logic yourself..

    And just to be clear here, i d love to get 3 top 100 prospects like Archer did. But I'm smart enough to know that just won't happen. Jays fans thinking their getting Cruz and Frazier is laughable.
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 07-23-2019 at 01:18 AM.

  13. #7963
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    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...it?usp=sharing

    One is Stroman this year and one is Archer last year before he was dealt. Guess which is which. No cheating.
    Last edited by Spiderdan22; 07-23-2019 at 02:07 AM.

  14. #7964
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    I'm just baffled that someone who works at fangraphs used the term straw mans on multiple occasions? Especially when said said fangraphs employee is the King...........errr Queen of the straw mans

    And Jacob deGrom? Pfffft tht guy is 5-7. Some ace.

  15. #7965
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    I haven't lost you resorted to lying and I called you on it. When you have to bald faced lie as you did you aren't winning nothing

    I just showed you that he went 0-3 against NY,Minn, and Tampa by a cumulative score of 20-6 and lost 8-2 to Arizona and 7-2 against the white sox, what does that have to do with DeGrom. You keep throwing out straw mans as if their candy. The Mets had just as bad a record as the Jays and DeGrom won twice as many games as stroman.So how does that help your argument? It actually goes a long way towards proving mine

    Degrom, a real ace. Despite playing on a team just as bad as the Blue Jays found a way to win more games than he lost and twice as many as Stroman, and win a Cy Young to boot. Stroman found a way to have a worse winning percentage than the team around him. Not only last year but this year as well

    That is exactly the point. Stroman does nothing to raise the level of his team. And NEVER HAS. So why would a contender pay a premium for a pitcher who hasn't done that?

    I didn't lose any argument, I also didn't resort to lying either. YOU DID, which you usually do when you're losing an argument. You even admitted you exaggerated. What is that if not a lie. So I didn't call you names.You Did. I just exposed it for what it was An untruth...

    You also said Edwin Jackson won a game where the jays scored 12 runs and then gave up 9 and got a win. When was that exactly. Or were you lying then too.

    The facts are that you just can't stand that I pointed the flaws in Stroman 's history You're so desperate to convince yourself that he's worth a great haul that you refuse to see both sides of the coin. Savvy fans understand it takes two to make a trade. And I just pointed out how an opposing GM will accurately question his value.

    AA knows Stroman better than anyone and they need pitching and it's been reported he hasn't even discussed getting Stroman from the Jays nor does he plan to. Could it not be that he doesn't see Stroman as any better than what he already has?

    As I've said again and again and again,playoff teams are looking for pitchers who can raise their level for the post season. If Stroman can't do that with Toronto, what makes you think he can against NY, Minn, Tampa, Houston, or LA? Teams he's 0-3 against and lost by a cumulative score of 20-6.?

    I'm sorry you don't like hearing the truth but for teams in their position it's a valid argument. And one they won't hesitate to present. And we as fans have to temper our expectations accordingly or we end up at a loss if and when he's eventually traded

    I end up looking like the bad guy because I insist on looking at things logically and dispassionately and when I end up being right more often than not you can't stand it. Maybe you should use a little logic yourself..

    And just to be clear here, i d love to get 3 top 100 prospects like Archer did. But I'm smart enough to know that just won't happen. Jays fans thinking their getting Cruz and Frazier is laughable.
    TLDR. Yawn. Youíre wrong.

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