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  1. #10861
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
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    14,107
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasky05 View Post
    We all know that. I meant where would you see Groshans and Martin fitting on this team if we hadn't made the trade.

    I also get that you will never be objective about Atkins so your comments about him will be taken with a grain of salt. First he couldn't build a farm, (we're top 5 IIRC), then we couldn't sign big name free agents, (See Ryu, Springer, Semien), He can't trade, (see Hand, Teo, Hatch, SWR,) so now we shouldn't have traded for an ace??? Seems whichever way Atkins goes your critical.

    We have a shot in 2021, and are set up well for 2022. We still have a strong farm with a very good major league roster. I recall you saying we'll never rebuild into a contender until at least 2023 or 2024, looks like we're a contender now.
    Ok I apologize. Itís confusing because youíre mixing groshans with Martin. We still have grosh.

    Never said he couldnít build a farm. Common misinterpretation pioneered by Reed saying it over and over again. My actual comment was ďanyone can build a farm if you arenít trying to winĒ. He doesnít get extra credit for sitting on prospects until they flame out imo.

    Also never said he couldnít sign FA. My point about his FA signings is that he has overpaid. Springer about 40 mil over the next bidder. Itís my understanding that no one came close to our 20X4 for ryu.

    Getting good value in trades is definitely an ongoing issue with Atkins. I think every trade he has made has been selling at the lowest possible value for the players going out. Same with his handling of the media.

    Another misconception (no idea why ppl read reedís posts about me like he has any idea what heís talking about. Iíve explained these misconceptions 1000X) is that I said we couldnít make the playoffs until 2023. I said ďif we are relying on the young guys to lead us to the playoffs without trades or FA then we would be lucky to make the playoffs by 2023/24Ē. That prediction was based on the young pitching coming up and being ready to lead us to the holy land. And look - now the young pitching is finally starting to come up, and hopefully by 2023 our staff can be mostly internally groomed, cheap pitching.

    But yeah Iím definitely critical and sceptical of Atkins and also shapiro. A WS appearance would change my mind! Hoping I eat my words, but like I said - Iím skeptical. Still work to do. I donít think this will be the year, but next year could totally be the year.

  2. #10862
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
    Posts
    3,228
    Jon Heyman

    Deadline winners: 1. LAD 2. CWS 3. NYY 4. Aís 5. Mets 6. SD 7. ATL 8. SF 9. Hou 10. Tor 11. Cinn 12. Phi 13. Bos Loser: Sea. Hard to judge the sellers but the Nats got the best prospects, the Twins made the best deal (Woods Richardson, Martin) and Cubs fans endured the most pain.

    argh

  3. #10863
    Join Date
    Jun 2019
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    234
    Quote Originally Posted by hanton View Post
    Jon Heyman

    Deadline winners: 1. LAD 2. CWS 3. NYY 4. Aís 5. Mets 6. SD 7. ATL 8. SF 9. Hou 10. Tor 11. Cinn 12. Phi 13. Bos Loser: Sea. Hard to judge the sellers but the Nats got the best prospects, the Twins made the best deal (Woods Richardson, Martin) and Cubs fans endured the most pain.

    argh
    Steve Phillips thinks it was a great move by the Jays. He felt the Jays were still in good shape with their position prospects. Mentioned Groshans, Kevin Smith and maybe the best of their position prospects Orelvis Martinez, who has been on an absolute tear in low A.

    We're 3.5 out of the wild card as of this evening.

  4. #10864
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasky05 View Post
    Steve Phillips thinks it was a great move by the Jays. He felt the Jays were still in good shape with their position prospects. Mentioned Groshans, Kevin Smith and maybe the best of their position prospects Orelvis Martinez, who has been on an absolute tear in low A.

    We're 3.5 out of the wild card as of this evening.
    Everyone is going to have their take, I just thought it was interesting Heyman chose to highlight that trade.

    out of all the traded prospects I believe Martin was the highest ranked

    Luis Patino in the Snell deal as well but that was weeks ago
    Last edited by hanton; 08-01-2021 at 12:45 AM.

  5. #10865
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    Aug 2008
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    It was an overpay of prospects, but if they make something out of it in the future then its a moot point and people will forget. I mean even if they win a title or say Berrios wins Cy Young, itd still technically be an overpay regardless but dont think people will complain much in that scenario.

    Theyre set themselves up in a psotion to compete now (albiet shortened their window more than they should) so lets see how 1.5 years plays out.

  6. #10866
    Join Date
    Oct 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ View Post
    It was an overpay of prospects, but if they make something out of it in the future then its a moot point and people will forget. I mean even if they win a title or say Berrios wins Cy Young, itd still technically be an overpay regardless but dont think people will complain much in that scenario.

    Theyre set themselves up in a psotion to compete now (albiet shortened their window more than they should) so lets see how 1.5 years plays out.
    I feel if you're going to make this move then it should have been all in for 2021 and if not then it HAS to be all in for 2022.

  7. #10867
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    Aug 2008
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    I preferred to stay at the deadline and then go big in FA given how deep this class is. Then at the same time use the prospects to trade for controllable pieces. So you line up your resources.

    They already made the move in 2021 so they have no choice but to go all in considering we'd only have 1 year of Berrios left.

    Whether any of us agree with it or not, gotta give them credit for trying.

  8. #10868
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    Feb 2009
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    14,107
    Quote Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ View Post
    I preferred to stay at the deadline and then go big in FA given how deep this class is. Then at the same time use the prospects to trade for controllable pieces. So you line up your resources.

    They already made the move in 2021 so they have no choice but to go all in considering we'd only have 1 year of Berrios left.

    Whether any of us agree with it or not, gotta give them credit for trying.
    I give them credit for the 2nd year on berrios. Saves money on pitching too. Possibly can explore re-signing seimen.

  9. #10869
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    Jun 2019
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    234
    The Steve Pearce for Santiago Espinal trade looks pretty good for both teams now that Espinal is blossoming into a legit 3rd base option. His defense is impressive and his .312/.790 slash line on 138 ab's looks real. He could be our future 3b.

  10. #10870
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    Jan 2008
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasky05 View Post
    The Steve Pearce for Santiago Espinal trade looks pretty good for both teams now that Espinal is blossoming into a legit 3rd base option. His defense is impressive and his .312/.790 slash line on 138 ab's looks real. He could be our future 3b.
    He's been better than Biggio this year for us. Hopefully Biggio can start picking up the pace a bit. I'm nervous about him.

  11. #10871
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    Oct 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by pebloemer View Post
    He's been better than Biggio this year for us. Hopefully Biggio can start picking up the pace a bit. I'm nervous about him.
    he's starting to look like a utility player - an average one at that

  12. #10872
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    I'm fine with Espinal but can't see him as a full time starter. Probably a Goins type of role.

  13. #10873
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    Jan 2007
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    Ontario
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanton View Post
    he's starting to look like a utility player - an average one at that
    I think high end utility a la Zobrist was his absolute ceiling.

  14. #10874
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ View Post
    I'm fine with Espinal but can't see him as a full time starter. Probably a Goins type of role.
    Depends. If he keeps it up with the the bat, he can play everyday. Even if you move him to second and find a mashing 3B.

  15. #10875
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    Oct 2018
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    I think high end utility a la Zobrist was his absolute ceiling.
    Agree.

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