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  1. #6346
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    A division realignment would change this entire franchises history.
    it certainly would,but it is what it is and the process of building the team must take that into account, you can not wish away your competitors. its part of the reasoning AA used when he acted and was correct to do as he did. in order for this franchise to truly see itself as competitive it simply must see itself as being able to stand toe to toe with at least one of the Red Sox or Yankees. otherwise winning the number two wild card is meaningless beause youre most likely not getting by them to advance anyway

    im not one to consider a fluke as legitimate in any way. Many considered the 69 mets a fluke but they still won 100 regular season games. so they deserved to be there. I just dont see winning 87 games as being deserving of anything because if not for the watered down 3 divisions, you would have been planning your golfing vacations the first week of september.

    there's no real difficulty in being a few games over break even and fans who think its some sort of accomplishment are merely deluding themselves

  2. #6347
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    sorry but thats not true. not in the slightest. you play in a division with the Red Sox and Yankees, so the dynamics are different and just winning 87 games is not competitive. going 87-75, , going 8-7 every 15 games, thats nothing to write home about especially in this division. The difference between that and 75-87 is so small that its basically meaningless

    the point being that sooner or later the Jays need to realize they play in the ig boys division, and not in the central

    I beg to differ. You don't have to win your division over 162 games to win a world series, so what does the Yankees and Red Sox winning 100+ each matter if you still get into the playoffs? The first goal now obviously is to be one of the top 5 teams in the AL. The second goal is to be the division winner to give yourself an advantage in round 2.

    Would you say that one of the Yankees or Red Sox won't be competitive this year since they will be a WC team? I don't think so. The only difference between finishing 2nd in the East and finishing 3rd (as long as you are still in the top 5 in the AL) is where the WC game is played.

  3. #6348
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    I beg to differ. You don't have to win your division over 162 games to win a world series, so what does the Yankees and Red Sox winning 100+ each matter if you still get into the playoffs? The first goal now obviously is to be one of the top 5 teams in the AL. The second goal is to be the division winner to give yourself an advantage in round 2.

    Would you say that one of the Yankees or Red Sox won't be competitive this year since they will be a WC team? I don't think so. The only difference between finishing 2nd in the East and finishing 3rd (as long as you are still in the top 5 in the AL) is where the WC game is played.
    bull your not competitive if you finish with the second wild card. its bogus on its face, it was created just to give teams the illusion of still being in the hunt.

    its SOLE PURPOSE is not competitive, but merely to keep fans buying tickets later in the season. as such it is a complete and utter farce

    the wild card game actually penalizes the team with the better record because they need to waste their best pitcher in a single elimination game where ANY TEAM CAN WIN. on any given day in baseball the very worst team can beat the very best, so your entire 5 team premise is a joke.

    by definition the second wild card team is a loser, even if they get lucky and go all the way its not a sign that they are contenders. it just means they got hot at the right time. it is a total farce. I can accept one wild card team because quite often the first wild card can have the second best record in baseball. and were just unlucky to play in the same division as the best. thats understandable. but a 3rd place team doesnt deserve to be considered, not ever.

    the very fact that its a 1 game format proves it. the other playoff series arent just one game affairs Why because MLB recognizes depth matters and your best teams have depth and it becomes increasingly important as a series goes on. You can deny it all you like but the second Wild cards its SOLE PURPOSE is not to be competitive, but merely to keep fans buying tickets later in the season. as such it is a complete and utter farce
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 05-15-2018 at 04:04 PM.

  4. #6349
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    sorry but thats not true. not in the slightest. you play in a division with the Red Sox and Yankees, so the dynamics are different and just winning 87 games is not competitive. going 87-75, , going 8-7 every 15 games, thats nothing to write home about especially in this division. The difference between that and 75-87 is so small that its basically meaningless

    the point being that sooner or later the Jays need to realize they play in the ig boys division, and not in the central
    But you know a 93 win team wins 8.6 out of every 15 instead of 8 right. Seems like a small difference also.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    Quote Originally Posted by nycericanguy View Post
    well unfortunately it looks like you were right about Bargs...

    but hopefully we can use his expiring, if not at least we unloaded Novak's deal...

  5. #6350
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    bull your not competitive if you finish with the second wild card. its bogus on its face, it was created just to give teams the illusion of still being in the hunt.

    its SOLE PURPOSE is not competitive, but merely to keep fans buying tickets later in the season. as such it is a complete and utter farce

    the wild card game actually penalizes the team with the better record because they need to waste their best pitcher in a single elimination game where ANY TEAM CAN WIN. on any given day in baseball the very worst team can beat the very best, so your entire 5 team premise is a joke.

    by definition the second wild card team is a loser, even if they get lucky and go all the way its not a sign that they are contenders. it just means they got hot at the right time. it is a total farce. I can accept one wild card team because quite often the first wild card can have the second best record in baseball. and were just unlucky to play in the same division as the best. thats understandable. but a 3rd place team doesnt deserve to be considered, not ever.

    the very fact that its a 1 game format proves it. the other playoff series arent just one game affairs Why because MLB recognizes depth matters and your best teams have depth and it becomes increasingly important as a series goes on. You can deny it all you like but the second Wild cards its SOLE PURPOSE is not to be competitive, but merely to keep fans buying tickets later in the season. as such it is a complete and utter farce


    Umm...do you even know how idiotic this statement is when you read it back?:

    "even if they get lucky and go all the way its not a sign that they are contenders."


    Your kind of right I guess though, they wouldn't just be contenders, they'd be champs.

    There isnt much difference between teams 4 and 5. Neither won a division, so who cares if WC team #1 gets punished. Why not let the 2 play off for a shot. There is nothing wrong with keeping more teams in it past the trade deadline. Its good for baseball.


    You just proved my point though in your little rant. Get hot at the right time, and you have a chance to win. If you're in, you have a shot. If you're not, you don't. The rings and memories will still look and feel the same if you win it all. No one will care if their team wins but did it as a 2nd WC team. If they do, then they are the "losers".
    Last edited by bartron_44; 05-15-2018 at 07:43 PM.

  6. #6351
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    Time for a hard cap in baseball -- and like hockey have a floor as well.

    This way you cant purposely tank but you cant go crazy either and may make things a little more balanced.

    Only way small market teams have a real shot over the long term...

  7. #6352
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    except you just totally proved my point

    your words:

    "Get hot at the right time, and you have a chance to win."

    in other words "Get lucky"

    Branch Rickey the HOF General Manager once said " luck is the residue of design"

    a real contender doesnt depend on luck or getting hot At the Right time, everyone knows the playoffs are a crap shoot.just getting there isnt a guarantee of anything. real contenders are built to make their own luck, because they are built deeper than their competitors

    your entire line of reasoning is exactly why the Jays have won squat since 1992, youre happy just "having a chance" instead of building a team that is expected to win and relishes the challenge, I have much higher expectations of my teams than you do
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 05-15-2018 at 10:33 PM.

  8. #6353
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jamiecballer View Post
    But you know a 93 win team wins 8.6 out of every 15 instead of 8 right. Seems like a small difference also.

    Sent from my SM-A520W using Tapatalk
    it IS a small difference, but you have to surely realize that the differerence between 87-75 and 75-87 looks much bigger than it actually is..... its really only the difference of one game result a month from break even.

    remember break even is win one lose one for the whole season. realistically good or bad luck can give you or take from you one game a month. so for me I see the teams who finish between 75 and 87 wins as basically the same. the main difference between them are Luck. Injuries, and things beyond their control, teams with more are good teams teams with fewer are Bad teams

    thats what Branch Rckey meant by Luck being the residue of design, if yor team is built strongly and deeply enough. good luck will find YOU, because you can withstand the little glitches that might sink a lesser team.

    Remember too Jamie C, what my career was. I worked with Numbers, algorithms, and projection models, every day for my entire professional career. when you boil it down Tax governance and the entire budgetary process is all about making the numbers work. looking at the big picture and finding a way to tax people fairly for as many as possible, while still meeting the revenue needs to fund all the programs that are necessary.

    because of that I look at the macro view, where most fans tend to look at the Micro view (team centric)
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; 05-15-2018 at 11:25 PM.

  9. #6354
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    bull your not competitive if you finish with the second wild card. its bogus on its face, it was created just to give teams the illusion of still being in the hunt.

    its SOLE PURPOSE is not competitive, but merely to keep fans buying tickets later in the season. as such it is a complete and utter farce

    the wild card game actually penalizes the team with the better record because they need to waste their best pitcher in a single elimination game where ANY TEAM CAN WIN. on any given day in baseball the very worst team can beat the very best, so your entire 5 team premise is a joke.

    by definition the second wild card team is a loser, even if they get lucky and go all the way its not a sign that they are contenders. it just means they got hot at the right time. it is a total farce. I can accept one wild card team because quite often the first wild card can have the second best record in baseball. and were just unlucky to play in the same division as the best. thats understandable. but a 3rd place team doesnt deserve to be considered, not ever.

    the very fact that its a 1 game format proves it. the other playoff series arent just one game affairs Why because MLB recognizes depth matters and your best teams have depth and it becomes increasingly important as a series goes on. You can deny it all you like but the second Wild cards its SOLE PURPOSE is not to be competitive, but merely to keep fans buying tickets later in the season. as such it is a complete and utter farce
    If we finished 2nd wildcard then add a VLad for playoffs be different. But that vanished now, team is fading

  10. #6355
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    I wouldn't shop Travis and I doubt anyone bites on Martin. Estrada and Donaldson would be a good haul though if they're going good.
    I'd like to get a young starter for Donaldson, with in MLB or close. Then deal Bichette with prospect we get for Happ for a Fullmer type. Not saying him, but young front of rotation starter. We have depth at ss but not so in starting pitching. Can re-sign Happ as '18 season is vanishing anyway

  11. #6356
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    except you just totally proved my point

    your words:

    "Get hot at the right time, and you have a chance to win."

    in other words "Get lucky"

    Branch Rickey the HOF General Manager once said " luck is the residue of design"

    a real contender doesnt depend on luck or getting hot At the Right time, everyone knows the playoffs are a crap shoot.just getting there isnt a guarantee of anything. real contenders are built to make their own luck, because they are built deeper than their competitors

    your entire line of reasoning is exactly why the Jays have won squat since 1992, youre happy just "having a chance" instead of building a team that is expected to win and relishes the challenge, I have much higher expectations of my teams than you do

    How do you think most championships are won? In any shortened tournament (aka playoff) luck is needed to get the job done. The best regular season team doesn't always win.

    Also... WTF are you talking about? This team didn't just have "a chance" in 2015..they were the favorites. they built a powerhouse with all-star level talent all over the place.. What good did that do them? Of course I would rather be in that position, but to say teams that finish 4th or 5th in the league over 162 are "losers" is just asinine. Baseball is still the hardest league to make it into the dance even with the 2nd wild card. Sorry we can't all root for dynasty's.

    This team is currently going through a rebuild. There is nothing wrong with still trying to compete while you do it though. If their rotation (which pretty much everyone agreed looked like a strength in the off season) had done over the first 7 weeks the way the lineup hit early and the way the bullpen has pitched all season so far they'd be right there with Boston and NY right now. However, that is just how it seems to go with this team. Every time we think either the rotation or bullpen is going to be really good, they stink and the other is the one that carries the team.




    You don't have to tank for a top pick to get good players in the MLB draft or via IFA. So it doesn't hurt to try and win games while you rebuild from within. Which they are doing a darn good job of doing.

  12. #6357
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanyo View Post
    Time for a hard cap in baseball -- and like hockey have a floor as well.

    This way you cant purposely tank but you cant go crazy either and may make things a little more balanced.

    Only way small market teams have a real shot over the long term...
    I agree. However I have noticed that most of the big budget teams are going to great lengths to avoid the tax cap and the only team in the cap I believe is not doing very well.

  13. #6358
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    I don't care for a cap really one way or the other, but I do like the idea of a floor.

  14. #6359
    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    How do you think most championships are won? In any shortened tournament (aka playoff) luck is needed to get the job done. The best regular season team doesn't always win.

    Also... WTF are you talking about? This team didn't just have "a chance" in 2015..they were the favorites. they built a powerhouse with all-star level talent all over the place.. What good did that do them? Of course I would rather be in that position, but to say teams that finish 4th or 5th in the league over 162 are "losers" is just asinine. Baseball is still the hardest league to make it into the dance even with the 2nd wild card. Sorry we can't all root for dynasty's.

    This team is currently going through a rebuild. There is nothing wrong with still trying to compete while you do it though. If their rotation (which pretty much everyone agreed looked like a strength in the off season) had done over the first 7 weeks the way the lineup hit early and the way the bullpen has pitched all season so far they'd be right there with Boston and NY right now. However, that is just how it seems to go with this team. Every time we think either the rotation or bullpen is going to be really good, they stink and the other is the one that carries the team.




    You don't have to tank for a top pick to get good players in the MLB draft or via IFA. So it doesn't hurt to try and win games while you rebuild from within. Which they are doing a darn good job of doing.
    Are they? Shapkins refuses to call this a rebuild, but have both voiced that they feel they have a roster to still compete now. I'm all for a COMPLETE rebuild...this roster is a 78-80 team, and JD is LOOONG gone in FA if they don't deal him.

  15. #6360
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    Quote Originally Posted by passengershawn View Post
    Are they? Shapkins refuses to call this a rebuild, but have both voiced that they feel they have a roster to still compete now. I'm all for a COMPLETE rebuild...this roster is a 78-80 team, and JD is LOOONG gone in FA if they don't deal him.
    We all know what it is. It's more of a transition period than anything. A transition period while staying relatively relevant. I mean really, the WC2 isn't out reach. Yankees/BoSox will win ALEast and WC1, HOU ALWest, CLE ALCentral... who is going to compete for the WC2? Angels? Let's go through a list:

    Angels probably
    M's just lost Cano for half the season.
    Rangers are brutal
    A's aren't good yet
    The entire Central is a joke outside Cleveland
    O's are 16 games under .500 already, they're done.
    Rays? Beatable

    Really I'd say the WC2 is between the Angels, us and maybe the M's. Easily doable if the pitching figures their lives out.


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