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  1. #10381
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    2022 for the farm pitching to lead us into contention? Because thatís what my whole 2023/24 thing was/has been about.

    So you do think we have multiple TORP in the farm right now that will be ready to dominate ML hitting as soon as the touch the ML. Got it. Iíd sig bet you on that.
    Unless youíre talking about what Kenny mentioned, which is completely outside of the scope of any timeline Iíve mentioned.
    Even ryu and springer are outside of that one off-hand comment that youíve clung onto for years now.
    I think we will be a championship contender in 2022. Just like I said in 2019. Remember when you'd always be saying how the rebuild would be for the long run and I would always disagree? Well, I tried to explain to you why but you'd always just blow things out of proportion then cry victim. I'd even try to relate to the Cubs/Astros with how the process worked and you'd rotate over to player specifics. Trying to compare player to player as opposed to stages of a rebuild (FA signings for multiple years followed by big trades)

    After they signed Ryu it was plain obvious they were going for it. From the get go I tried to explain just how Atkins and Shapiro are incredibly good at building a farm but again, you fought every step of the way. Normally when a team who has an elite farm goes out and signs an ace it means good things are on the horizon. Couple that with a payroll that was peanuts and will be peanuts again next off season and a championship should be in order for 2022. I saw it coming years ago and instead of hearing me out you fought every step of the way. I'm not interested in arguing about it with you anymore. Let's enjoy the team and maybe stop being so negative for the sake of being negative?
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  2. #10382
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    Based on our rotation I can only imagine Atkins will be looking for a mid season trade. Iím hoping heís keeping an eye on the Cubs. If they falter then thereís plenty of pieces that could help.

  3. #10383
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    I think we will be a championship contender in 2022. Just like I said in 2019. Remember when you'd always be saying how the rebuild would be for the long run and I would always disagree? Well, I tried to explain to you why but you'd always just blow things out of proportion then cry victim. I'd even try to relate to the Cubs/Astros with how the process worked and you'd rotate over to player specifics. Trying to compare player to player as opposed to stages of a rebuild (FA signings for multiple years followed by big trades)

    After they signed Ryu it was plain obvious they were going for it. From the get go I tried to explain just how Atkins and Shapiro are incredibly good at building a farm but again, you fought every step of the way. Normally when a team who has an elite farm goes out and signs an ace it means good things are on the horizon. Couple that with a payroll that was peanuts and will be peanuts again next off season and a championship should be in order for 2022. I saw it coming years ago and instead of hearing me out you fought every step of the way. I'm not interested in arguing about it with you anymore. Let's enjoy the team and maybe stop being so negative for the sake of being negative?
    K. I think Iíd we didnít sign any FA or continue to not make any win now trades, we would have been contenders in 2023. What are you disagreeing with me about?

  4. #10384
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasky05 View Post
    The 1991 Jays had a team OPS of .734, (starters plus 10th batter reserve). So their offense in 1991 was less than average, and the pitching was the strength. They didn't have a player with ops over .833, and only had 2 over .800. The 2020 Jays had 6. The 2020 team OPS was .815. Apples and oranges for comparison. For 1992, they signed Molitor. Jack Morris and Winfield, Olerud and Alemar progressed, traded for David Cone, and got the ring. Their team OPS in 92 was only .754.
    Not to mince words, but Molitor game in 93 to replace Winfield. And a team with an OPS of 754 won the WS and the Jays with an 815 OPS wouldn't even have made the playoffs so...I'm guessing there is more than OPS to winning the title. As great as RYU was last year, it still concerns me that he was too tired to pitch game one and got shelled in game two. Would he have even made it to September in a 162 game season? He is going to be a player that regresses quickly as he ages I think, so What will he be like in the 4th year of the deal? The need for him to pitch every six days is also going to really mess with the rest of the rotation. OPS won't alone carry the team. And you are also comparing a small sample size to a much larger one, so where would the Jays OPS have been in 20 over a 162 season? A please don't just convert the current OPS to an average that reflects a 162 season because that would be so inaccurate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasky05 View Post
    You say the young guys haven't proven anything. So are you discounting Teo's ALMVP finalist and .920 OPS over his last 145 games., LGJ Gold glove and .308 ave, Bo and Biggio's progress, even Grichuk was a .793 OPS last year. There is a great foundation and the reason why Springer and Semien were added. The trades for Teo, SWR, Hatch, and Kay are wins for the Jays and losing a moody little egomaniac in our trade with the mets was addition by subtraction in my opinion.
    Hernandez had a hot started and cooled as the season went on. By the end of September he had fallen off a cliff. He busted out with a 1.176 OPS for the seven games in July, August he was .931 (and I believe for someone to be considered a top hitter you need to be at least 1.0), and 0.788 for September (https://www.espn.com/mlb/player/game...scar-hernandez). Sustained over a 162 game season, I think we would see numbers similar to those of the last five years and not the small 190 ABs sample size you are trumpeting from last year. After his brief stint on the IL, he looked much more like Hernandez of old than new. What will the offseason break do for him then? I think he actually was a prime sell high candidate this offseason. I hope I'm wrong but I'll rely on his average OPS for the past five years and 1271 ABs instead of 190 ABs. And he finished 11th in MVP voting. Plan the parade.

    How is SWR considered to be a win yet? He hasn't pitched a game in the majors yet. We can only say its a win once he makes the squad, and becomes a bonified number two starter as that was the role of the player that he replaced. In 2015, Pompey, Norris, Sanchez, McKinney, Alford, and Hoffman we also top 100 prospects. How did they work out? Prospects is a crap shoot. I hope he works out but the is absolutely no guarantee the he will.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sasky05 View Post
    You crawl up Atkins a__ for not moving sooner, but don't acknowledge that his hands were basically tied as he wasn't allowed to dismantle the team while the head honcho's wanted to keep the playoff dream alive in 2017.
    He could have retooled if he had the ability to make smart baseball trades. People complained a bit in 91 when McGriff and Fernandez were dealt, but fans got over it quickly. I'm sure at the time other GMs would have considered blockbuster deals with the Jays. Unfortunately Atkins sucks at making trades. Cashman retooled an aging Yankees team quickly in 2016 so...

    But I also have never said to dismantle the team at the beginning of 2017. That should have happened beginning at the TDL in 2017. Then to try it again in 2018 with the same core players thinking all the aging veterans would rebound is insane. Instead he blamed it on not having better players as back ups. It was clear he had no plan and was making it up as he went along. He lacks the creativity that Gillick and AA had to make the trades needed to be made. Fortunately he is smart to hold onto most of his specs, a huge AA flaw IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sasky05 View Post
    We now have a top 3 farm, something I don't ever remember the Jays having. We have a deep and talented team, and a little tinkering ala the 92 Jays could have us knocking on the door.
    The Jays of the 80s and early 90s had the premier farm system in baseball and were ranked number one three times. Heck in 92, they won it all and drafted Shawn Greene. https://www.baseballamerica.com/stor...system-before/. Atkins has done a good job of building the farm, I have never said that he didn't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sasky05 View Post
    Don't worry, be happy, there are great days ahead for this team. Unfortunately, your hatred for Atkins is blinding you from reality. Even Chong has begun to acknowledge some of the good things going on in Jays land,
    I hope you are right. We could be making a run at the title by next year if Atkins didn't suck but realistically the top farm will translate into a run probably in 23 or 24. Hopefully Atkins can show more creativity by then in trades. We also have to hope that all these specs work out for that to happen, and Atkins didn't get enough in the beginning so he's going to have to spend bigtime to put us over now to fill in the holes.

  5. #10385
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    @Spiderdan22 I hope your "bold" key was just stuck and that wasn't intentional

  6. #10386
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    K. I think Iíd we didnít sign any FA or continue to not make any win now trades, we would have been contenders in 2023. What are you disagreeing with me about?
    That's cool dude. You were trying to jam some words in my mouth as usual so I just reiterated what my beliefs actually are. You're free to believe what you want. I'm looking forward to the day you change your prediction to 2022
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  7. #10387
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    Spidey, what pessimistic kool-aid have you been drinking? This team was absolute dogsh%& 2 years ago, and in 2 off seasons Atkins has them back as legitimate playoff candidates and signed at least one of the top FA's on the market in each of the last 2 seasons. I don't know about you, but as a life long Jays fan, I had pretty much given up on the Jays ever being real players for the studs in free agency and never thought getting Ryu, Springer or Semien was even fathomable. ..let alone obtainable.

    If the Jays go to the playoffs again in 2021, that will be 3 times in 6 seasons under "Shatkins"...with a window that isn't closing any time soon. This season they boldly stated they would add multiple impact players to this team, and to everyone's surprise (... including me and all my optimism...) that is exactly what they did.

    Any "fan" that keeps spouting hate for this front office that has done so much good for this franchise from the ground up as they molded this franchise into something special is just a hater. Plain and simple. Your team is actually becoming relevant again, we have a top farm system, we have the best minor league / training facility in baseball now, we have plans for natural grass and/or a new ballpark are in the works and FA's are actually willing to come here again.........and all you can do is complain they didn't do it faster? Talk about some Debbie effin Downers...You guys must be the life of the party when you go out..lmao


    People just need to accept that this front office has very different philosophies on building a team than AA. ..like polar opposite. AA drafted to make trades ...this front office drafts to develop and actually use its young players. Instead of spending prospects, they will just spend money to obtain outside talent (most of the time). Please just accept this and stop harping about them not trading away the farm to go all-in again when they arent knocking on the door yet.

  8. #10388
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    Where's my upvote...

  9. #10389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chaotic98 View Post
    Where's my upvote...

  10. #10390
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    Spidey, what pessimistic kool-aid have you been drinking? This team was absolute dogsh%& 2 years ago, and in 2 off seasons Atkins has them back as legitimate playoff candidates and signed at least one of the top FA's on the market in each of the last 2 seasons. I don't know about you, but as a life long Jays fan, I had pretty much given up on the Jays ever being real players for the studs in free agency and never thought getting Ryu, Springer or Semien was even fathomable. ..let alone obtainable.

    If the Jays go to the playoffs again in 2021, that will be 3 times in 6 seasons under "Shatkins"...with a window that isn't closing any time soon. This season they boldly stated they would add multiple impact players to this team, and to everyone's surprise (... including me and all my optimism...) that is exactly what they did.

    Any "fan" that keeps spouting hate for this front office that has done so much good for this franchise from the ground up as they molded this franchise into something special is just a hater. Plain and simple. Your team is actually becoming relevant again, we have a top farm system, we have the best minor league / training facility in baseball now, we have plans for natural grass and/or a new ballpark are in the works and FA's are actually willing to come here again.........and all you can do is complain they didn't do it faster? Talk about some Debbie effin Downers...You guys must be the life of the party when you go out..lmao


    People just need to accept that this front office has very different philosophies on building a team than AA. ..like polar opposite. AA drafted to make trades ...this front office drafts to develop and actually use its young players. Instead of spending prospects, they will just spend money to obtain outside talent (most of the time). Please just accept this and stop harping about them not trading away the farm to go all-in again when they arent knocking on the door yet.
    While Iím not as deep in the optimism as you are, I ask myself ďwhat would I have wanted differently these last 2 offseasons?Ē And honestly he has delivered exactly what the offseason I requested before hand these last 2 years. It would be crazy for me to hate on what he has started to do recently.

    Ima continue to hold my grudge for the rookie tear down and the 2017 debacle, but heís showing signs of life and Iím intrigued with how he chooses to cap things off.

  11. #10391
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    Interesting comments in todayís Mets camp, Tijuan Walker said he wanted to resign with the Blue Jays but that by their offers, he got the feeling that the interest wasnít mutual. After tuning down 2 offers that he felt werenít serious he approached the Mariners and thought he would end up back with his original club, and when James Paxton went there instead, he was unsure where heíd wind up. He said that his agent spoke to Blue Jays again, who still werenít willing to up their offer.. . He said he thought that he had done well as a Blue Jay and enjoyed his time with them and appreciated the fans and players support. He says he feels he is primed for a breakout as he has learned to not just throw hard and go for the Strikeout, and to rely on the mix of his pitches, which he was working on last year

    I found it interesting because players rarely speak about contract negotiations and the teams that they have talked to. Usually itís that who ever they sign with, was where they wanted to be all along, and you know that is usually just teamspeak. It was refreshing to hear a player talk about his personal process as a free agent. It makes you understand that these are flesh and blood human beings who worry about finding a place to ply their trade in these uncertain times.
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; Yesterday at 06:08 AM.

  12. #10392
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikepelfrey View Post
    Interesting comments in todayís Mets camp, Tijuan Walker said he wanted to resign with the Blue Jays but that by their offers, he got the feeling that the interest wasnít mutual. After tuning down 2 offers that he felt werenít serious he approached the Mariners and thought he would end up back with his original club, and when James Paxton went there instead, he was unsure where heíd wind up. He said that his agent spoke to Blue Jays again, who still werenít willing to up their offer.. . He said he thought that he had done well as a Blue Jay and enjoyed his time with them and appreciated the fans and players support. He says he feels he is primed for a breakout as he has learned to not just throw hard and go for the Strikeout, and to rely on the mix of his pitches, which he was working on last year

    I found it interesting because players rarely speak about contract negotiations and the teams that they have talked to. Usually itís that who ever they sign with, was where they wanted to be all along, and you know that is usually just teamspeak. It was refreshing to hear a player talk about his personal process as a free agent. It makes you understand that these are flesh and blood human beings who worry about finding a place to ply their trade in these uncertain times.
    If I'm reading into it, I'm guessing Jays weren't willing to offer more than a 1 year deal. They want to evaluate the younger pitchers and have as much money to spend as possible next winter too.

  13. #10393
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    I find it funny that after signing in NY he comes out and says where he really wanted to play was Toronto...lmao Even if that is true it isn't really the message you want to send to your new teammates I don't think.

    I think they only offered him 1 year deal probably similar to what they gave Ray. Walker just had better numbers so he thought he deserved more. This didn't really reveal anything we didn't already know.....other than he thought he was going to go to Seattle at one point. Apparently both Paxton (who we never even gave an offer to) and Walker both wanted to come here...but the Jays didn't want them.


    If I read into this off season, I see a management group that doesn't really have any left handed prospects coming after Kay. They turned Borucki into a reliever, so now pretty much every single starting pitching prospect they have is right handed. I think Matz and Ray are essentially on tryouts to see if they can give us some more left handed depth in the rotation over the next few years after this one. They are both young enough to sign again next off season if they do well, and if they end up as your 4/5 type starters you are doing pretty darn good imo.

  14. #10394
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    I find it funny that after signing in NY he comes out and says where he really wanted to play was Toronto...lmao Even if that is true it isn't really the message you want to send to your new teammates I don't think.

    I think they only offered him 1 year deal probably similar to what they gave Ray. Walker just had better numbers so he thought he deserved more. This didn't really reveal anything we didn't already know.....other than he thought he was going to go to Seattle at one point. Apparently both Paxton (who we never even gave an offer to) and Walker both wanted to come here...but the Jays didn't want them.


    If I read into this off season, I see a management group that doesn't really have any left handed prospects coming after Kay. They turned Borucki into a reliever, so now pretty much every single starting pitching prospect they have is right handed. I think Matz and Ray are essentially on tryouts to see if they can give us some more left handed depth in the rotation over the next few years after this one. They are both young enough to sign again next off season if they do well, and if they end up as your 4/5 type starters you are doing pretty darn good imo.
    I didnt get the Idea that Walker was upset at all, He seemed to really enjoy his time with the Jays, at least he said so. I just found his comments refreshing because how often do you hear players describing step by step how they dealt with the free agent process itself. most end up saying exactly the same thing. "this is where I wanted to be all along"

    It just made me appreciate that there is a human side to all of this that we as fans overlook. most athletes are masters at cliches and responses that tell you nothing. this was different and It was something Id like to see more of. you hint at it yourself when you say: "it isn't really the message you want to send to your new teammates I don't think."

    I agree, those are the type of attitudes that most players do seem to all think about. to which I say why?it was so out of the ordinary that it was noticeable and I wish we as fans got more of. I usually tune out most player interviews because theyre all the same. but not this one. as an example listen to Aaron Judge. Ive heard him give hundreds of interviews and literally every sentence is a cliche. he's a great player but he's boring as hell. because its just cliche after cliche
    Last edited by mikepelfrey; Yesterday at 04:32 PM.

  15. #10395
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    Rumours starting to swirl about Trout being unhappy with not making the playoffs. I called this earlier in the off season. Letís hope the Angels suck and he asks out. Weíd have the money and the specs to get a deal done. Itís a pipe dream, but that would be amazing.

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