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  1. #8971
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    After what just happened to ATL in the playoffs (and all year long) I am asking for more than someone they won't even be playing much for Giles. If they don't replace Markakis they still have:

    Acuna
    Duvall
    Riley
    Inciarte
    Waters
    Pache


    How about Giles for Pache? If they can't get Pache Inciarte isn't a bad consolation prize. He still has 3 years of control, plays a solid CF, bats left handed and posts a decent OBP. I would just prefer to add another top 10ish prospect in all of baseball to go with the group we already have than a 29 year old trending in the wrong direction.

    This front office can't make a deal with AA that has any chance of being perceived as a loss. They would get buried if that happened. To make a deal with AA it would have to be one that everyone around baseball would like. If they are going to fill AA's biggest need this off season, they better get one heck of a return. Christian Pache or even Drew Waters is the type of return (imo) that they need. Both are only 20 years old, beat up AA for 108 games and ended the season in AAA with decent numbers over SSS's. Waters is an above average defender with 60 grades on his arm, fielding and run tools, but Pache is projected as a future GG winner in CF with 70 grades on his arm, run and fielding tools.
    Pache is definitely a good get. I would prefer him over waters personally. Less bust potential imo.

  2. #8972
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    So then why do you incorporate velocity in the very next sentence?
    show my quote please
    How were you trying to show that pitchers like Soroka and Ryu don't come across as elite pitchers?
    I was trying to show that Soroka and Ryu were not elite? show me.

    Furthermore, why are you trying to explain what an elite pitcher is?
    Why not?
    This is about elite arms.
    ok and I explained to you what my definition is. You not happy with it?

    You're missing the point on the Stroman thing. He only mentioned the bullpen because he doesn't believe that Stroman is better than Paxton, Tanaka, Severino and German. You don't trade for a starting pitcher to just throw him in the BP lol.
    Stroman would not pitch ahead of Tanaka, Severino and Paxton so he would be sent to the pen. Why is this so difficult to understand? Happ and CC are in the pen because they are not as good as the other 3. Same goes for Stroman had they acquired him.

    The Twins farm is better but after the Twins made it clear they weren't dealing any of their top prospects then maybe SWR was seen as better than anything they had? You also need to remember that the Mets were in the middle ground. Teams were calling about Thor so who knows, maybe Atkins had to get a deal done before the Mets chose to trade Thor and go in the other direction? There are so many unknowns in this situation that it comes off as petty to complain about how he didn't call the Twins back. That's just my opinion though.
    Not petty at all. Stroman was his biggest trade chip even you said it will make or break Atkins didn't you? So here it is then. Even if Krill and Lewis were off the table....Larnach would have been a difference maker. And the context here Atkins pulling the trigger 3 days early.

  3. #8973
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Pache is definitely a good get. I would prefer him over waters personally. Less bust potential imo.
    I agree but thereís no way thatís happening guys.

  4. #8974
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    Quote Originally Posted by 500 Level View Post
    I agree but thereís no way thatís happening guys.
    I donít think a 1 for 1 swap of pache for Giles is such a crazy possibility.

  5. #8975
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    I donít think a 1 for 1 swap of pache for Giles is such a crazy possibility.
    Do you think Giles has more value now than the deadline, because if that was on the table in July they were insane not to take it. Waters MAYBE. But I donít think he sticks at CF, and Inciarte and a good arm might be worth more.

  6. #8976
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    I donít think a 1 for 1 swap of pache for Giles is such a crazy possibility.
    I can't see unless Alex gets impulsive, albeit he has in the past. Pache is ranked 11th on MLB Pipeline, not sure about BA, and if teams are valuing prospects like they did at the TDL then I just can't see it. Waters might even be a stretch in a straight up deal for Giles

  7. #8977
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanton View Post
    show my quote please
    I was trying to show that Soroka and Ryu were not elite? show me.

    Why not? ok and I explained to you what my definition is. You not happy with it?


    Stroman would not pitch ahead of Tanaka, Severino and Paxton so he would be sent to the pen. Why is this so difficult to understand? Happ and CC are in the pen because they are not as good as the other 3. Same goes for Stroman had they acquired him.


    Not petty at all. Stroman was his biggest trade chip even you said it will make or break Atkins didn't you? So here it is then. Even if Krill and Lewis were off the table....Larnach would have been a difference maker. And the context here Atkins pulling the trigger 3 days early.
    Responding on my phone so I canít quote each blurb individually.

    I bolded your quote incorporating velocity right after you claimed not to. You probably missed it because you immediately started talking about having a smooth delivery in the same sentence. The irony is that you didnít talk about Ryu and/or Soroka having smooth deliveries.

    In the very same post you said, ďI was trying to show that pitchers like Ryu and Soroka may not come across as elite yet are up for the Cy Young.Ē So I will ask again, how were you trying to show that pitchers like Ryu and Soroka might not come across as elite?

    Iím not unhappy with your definition of an elite pitcher. Itís just that this debate is all about Sanchez having an elite arm. You keep changing the subject to pitcher and/or try to expand your horizons instead of just saying Sanchez isnít an elite arm.

    I think weíre lost on the Stroman subject. I agree that he isnít as good as Paxton, Tanaka and Sev. I was just saying that Cashman wouldnít be acquiring a starting pitcher with the plan of using him in the bullpen. Heíd go out and get a reliever if he was worried about the pen.

    I did say the Stroman trade will make or break Atkins and I stand by that statement. Iíve also stated that I believe in SWR. My beef here is that you also claim to have faith in SWR yet youíre complaining that Atkins couldíve gotten more from the Twins. Youíre setting yourself up so regardless of the outcome you can be in the right. If SWR doesnít pan out then you can criticize Atkins for not calling the Twins back. If he does pan out then you believed in him all along. Itís very petty.

    Considering you used Larnach as an example Iíll ask you directly. Would you have preferred Trevor Larnach over SWR?

  8. #8978
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    Quote Originally Posted by 500 Level View Post
    I donít think Inciarte has to be the piece thatís the big win. They have a plethora of young arms that can come with him. Inciarte is more of a solid placeholder for a few years.
    I think he has too much value has a former 3x GG winner in CF to be a "throw in" though. If you take him you aren't getting one of their better young arms along with him.

    Giles is good, but he had some arm issues this year that could still hurt his value this off season. I am probably dreaming too high to ask for a prospect like Pache or Waters for him. 3 years of Enciarte for 1 year of Giles is probably a good enough win to keep them from getting crucified by the fan base. People would likely be happy enough knowing they weren't planning to run Teoscar or Fisher out there in CF next year and they have a solid starting caliber CF. We are talking about a guy with 5 straight years of posting a WAR between 2.9 and 5.3 (...3.4, 5.2, 3.8, 2.9, 3.4) before missing most of this season due to injury. I would just prefer the younger Pache or Waters to go with this particular core if its possible.

  9. #8979
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Responding on my phone so I canít quote each blurb individually.

    I bolded your quote incorporating velocity right after you claimed not to. You probably missed it because you immediately started talking about having a smooth delivery in the same sentence. The irony is that you didnít talk about Ryu and/or Soroka having smooth deliveries.

    In the very same post you said, ďI was trying to show that pitchers like Ryu and Soroka may not come across as elite yet are up for the Cy Young.Ē So I will ask again, how were you trying to show that pitchers like Ryu and Soroka might not come across as elite?

    Iím not unhappy with your definition of an elite pitcher. Itís just that this debate is all about Sanchez having an elite arm. You keep changing the subject to pitcher and/or try to expand your horizons instead of just saying Sanchez isnít an elite arm.

    I think weíre lost on the Stroman subject. I agree that he isnít as good as Paxton, Tanaka and Sev. I was just saying that Cashman wouldnít be acquiring a starting pitcher with the plan of using him in the bullpen. Heíd go out and get a reliever if he was worried about the pen.

    I did say the Stroman trade will make or break Atkins and I stand by that statement. Iíve also stated that I believe in SWR. My beef here is that you also claim to have faith in SWR yet youíre complaining that Atkins couldíve gotten more from the Twins. Youíre setting yourself up so regardless of the outcome you can be in the right. If SWR doesnít pan out then you can criticize Atkins for not calling the Twins back. If he does pan out then you believed in him all along. Itís very petty.

    Considering you used Larnach as an example Iíll ask you directly. Would you have preferred Trevor Larnach over SWR?
    1. I consider Sanchez to have an elite arm and as I have stated - an effortless delivery with good velocity is what does it for me. Of course now he's hurt and shoulders don't tend to heal as well as elbows so who knows moving forward
    2. I was pointing out Ryu and Soroka are elite pitchers despite having below average fastballs - that's all. I wasn't trying to show they were not elite - in fact the complete opposite. I only mentioned them because you stated there was nothing elite about 92. Both those pitchers get batters out with less than 92.
    3. Petty again? Then your calling many of the baseball insiders petty as well. I will continue to be petty.
    4. Of course he wouldn't acquire Stroman for the sole purpose of putting him in the pen but had he acquired him that's exactly where he would have ended up, that was my point.
    5. I would have preferred Larnach.


    I brought up other pitchers and listed what makes a pitcher good/elite/an all star just to show that there is way more than just having and elite arm or a good fastball. There's alot more to it. Entire books have been written on the subject. if you already knew this then ignore but from your posts it didn't seem like you did.

  10. #8980
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kenny Powders View Post
    I can't see unless Alex gets impulsive, albeit he has in the past. Pache is ranked 11th on MLB Pipeline, not sure about BA, and if teams are valuing prospects like they did at the TDL then I just can't see it. Waters might even be a stretch in a straight up deal for Giles
    I think the only way is we take back a big contract. A team that's desperate to shed salary - Atkins would have to find a willing partner. That or add to Giles...Biggio...etc which I doubt they do.

  11. #8981
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanton View Post
    I think the only way is we take back a big contract. A team that's desperate to shed salary - Atkins would have to find a willing partner. That or add to Giles...Biggio...etc which I doubt they do.
    I think the best way they can spend money is taking on contracts for prospects. I wonder if the Cubs would listen to Grichuk for Heyward and Happ. Gets them out of 40mil.

  12. #8982
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanton View Post
    I think the only way is we take back a big contract. A team that's desperate to shed salary - Atkins would have to find a willing partner. That or add to Giles...Biggio...etc which I doubt they do.
    Yeah Giles isn't gonna get Waters or Pache but I don't think we would need to add Biggio that's a bit extreme. I could see Giles plus one of are arms like SWR/Pardinho or Giles and a bat like Martinez or Moreno. Either or I'd do it. I think are lack of a CFer is maybe are biggest current issue. We obviously need pitching but we have plenty of arms coming up in the next couple years are OF is bare of any real MLB talent outside of LGJ or any MiLB talent.

  13. #8983
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    Quote Originally Posted by 500 Level View Post
    I think the best way they can spend money is taking on contracts for prospects. I wonder if the Cubs would listen to Grichuk for Heyward and Happ. Gets them out of 40mil.
    That's not a bad move. Neither really upgrade us too much, Happ could possibly break out and is a good utility guy but he's not a great CFer and K's a lot something I'd like to avoid since every other OFer we have does the same.

  14. #8984
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    Quote Originally Posted by LanceUpperCut View Post
    That's not a bad move. Neither really upgrade us too much, Happ could possibly break out and is a good utility guy but he's not a great CFer and K's a lot something I'd like to avoid since every other OFer we have does the same.
    Couldnít Heyward play CF and Happ in RF?

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