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  1. #6511
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    I remember your feelings on the subject pretty well Chong, the only problem was they couldn't blow up the team after missing the playoffs for 20 years and then going to the ALCS in back to back years. They just failed that off season by losing EE after he didn't accept their (in hindsight) generous offer before exploring the market. Then Donaldson missed like 50 games, Travis missed ~100 games and Tulo missed ~100 games. So they were running out Barney, Goins and a catcher who couldn't hit half the time. Not to mention Sanchez missed essentially the entire season after going 15-2 the year before and looking like a future ace. That team was better than a 76 win team on paper and they could have gotten back into the playoffs with 85 wins. They owed it to the fans and also guys like Martin, Tulo to go for it one more time. (They obviously cared about not chasing the fans off again so quickly after just getting them back because they found more money suddenly late in the off season to bring back Bautista after they found out they lost EE. )

    In hindsight even if they got EE instead of Bautista they still weren't making it with all the injuries they suffered, but if just Sanchez has another solid season they would have come pretty darn close to making it back to the dance.


    However, can we stop talking about 2017 when we have:

    - A guy like Gabriel Moreno looking like the next Yadier Molina behind the plate
    - One of the best SP in baseball in Manoah
    - One of the best hitters of his generation in Vladdy
    - A potential all-star this year behind the plate in Kirk
    - An all-star SS in Bichette
    - A potential all-star this year in Espinal



    and that doesn't even include the all-stars they have acquired to supplement those kids:

    Springer
    Chapman
    Gausman
    Berrios


    All this and you guys want to bicker about what happened 5 years ago?
    I understand why they lied to fans in 2017, they were milking the dumb fans. I get it, but that doesnít mean I have to like it.

    Iím not even leaning on the fact that I was saying these things at the time either. Iím asking for the fans to use the obvious hindsight to admit ďyeah that would have been idealĒ.

    Iím not dissapointed with where the team currently is, but it obviously would be nice to have something to show for some of those assets on the roster right now. Not sure why that is so hard to admit.

    I think people confuse me with spiderdan a lot and get defensive. Iím a fan too yo! Canít we just talk logically about baseball without some people feeling like Iím attacking their wife?

  2. #6512
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    I understand why they lied to fans in 2017, they were milking the dumb fans. I get it, but that doesnít mean I have to like it.

    Iím not even leaning on the fact that I was saying these things at the time either. Iím asking for the fans to use the obvious hindsight to admit ďyeah that would have been idealĒ.

    Iím not dissapointed with where the team currently is, but it obviously would be nice to have something to show for some of those assets on the roster right now. Not sure why that is so hard to admit.

    I think people confuse me with spiderdan a lot and get defensive. Iím a fan too yo! Canít we just talk logically about baseball without some people feeling like Iím attacking their wife?
    I would definitely meet you at the bolded point. I felt that way at the time too, but I never believed it was realistic to expect a tear down with how a seemingly apathetic product suddenly boomed in business in 2015/2016. Even if Atkins/Shapiro advocated for a full tear down after 2015 or 2016, I don't believe there is a chance that the shareholders would allow that direction. I know we don't always care about the business side of things as fans, but for the people that run the organization, their relationship with their employers (who care about profit) is extremely important. And handling that relationship well can determine how long they themselves are employed for and how much trust the ownership gives them to spend money down the road.

    On one hand, if they went an signed Price to a 217 million dollar deal after 2015, they might actually be fired by now. On the other hand, if they trade away the talent that brought in record revenues, they'd be on an extremely short leash as they enter a long term rebuild.

    I completely agree with bartron though and kinda regret putting this post together. We really don't need to rehash everything from 5 years ago again. We are in an exciting place right now...

  3. #6513
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    My understanding is that ownership pushed for the 2017 run. Not much you can do when Mgmt says go for it when you know it's time to rebuild. We could have gotten some nice pieces. Crap... I forget the SP the Cards were apparently dangling for Josh.

  4. #6514
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    Quote Originally Posted by town123 View Post
    My understanding is that ownership pushed for the 2017 run. Not much you can do when Mgmt says go for it when you know it's time to rebuild. We could have gotten some nice pieces. Crap... I forget the SP the Cards were apparently dangling for Josh.
    Right?!

    People trying to turn my words into ďI hate this team and everyone on itĒ. Iím just saying it would have been nice. With the power of hindsight, those of us calling for an aggressive tear down following the 2016 season were correct (if the main goal is winning. Not if the main goal is milking passive fans with limited baseball knowledge).

    Meh. I shouldnít have taken reeds bait.

  5. #6515
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    Of course it would have been ideal to get Bader and Flaherty (if that offer was indeed real and not just fake news) for Donaldson as well as whatever they could have gotten for Martin, Happ, Estrada and Liriano. All of whom were coming off string 2016 seasons (.....well at least Liriano's time with the Jays was solid).

    Happ went 20-4 in 2016 with a 3.18 ERA and had 2 years of control
    Estrada was an all-star in 2016 and was coming off back-to-back solid seasons and had 2 years of control
    Liriano had a 2.92 ERA over 50 innings down the stretch
    Martin started 120 games at C in 2016 with 20 HR's and 74 RBI...and received MVP votes in 13, 14 and 15.

    So of course hindsight says it would have been better to rebuild earlier.


    On a more current note. I would love to see them call up Samad Taylor and cut Bradley Zimmer. I know his D in CF lets us DH Springer some, but I think they could simply play Tapia instead in those spots and be OK. Taylor is having another great season and is red hot. He is 9 for 20 with 3 doubles and 3 SB's in his last 5 games and this year he is hitting .377/.459/.547 against LHP. Zimmer is 7 for 62 ffs.

  6. #6516
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    I remember your feelings on the subject pretty well Chong, the only problem was they couldn't blow up the team after missing the playoffs for 20 years and then going to the ALCS in back to back years. They just failed that off season by losing EE after he didn't accept their (in hindsight) generous offer before exploring the market. Then Donaldson missed like 50 games, Travis missed ~100 games and Tulo missed ~100 games. So they were running out Barney, Goins and a catcher who couldn't hit half the time. Not to mention Sanchez missed essentially the entire season after going 15-2 the year before and looking like a future ace. That team was better than a 76 win team on paper and they could have gotten back into the playoffs with 85 wins. They owed it to the fans and also guys like Martin, Tulo to go for it one more time. (They obviously cared about not chasing the fans off again so quickly after just getting them back because they found more money suddenly late in the off season to bring back Bautista after they found out they lost EE. )

    In hindsight even if they got EE instead of Bautista they still weren't making it with all the injuries they suffered, but if just Sanchez has another solid season they would have come pretty darn close to making it back to the dance.


    However, can we stop talking about 2017 when we have:

    - A guy like Gabriel Moreno looking like the next Yadier Molina behind the plate
    - One of the best SP in baseball in Manoah
    - One of the best hitters of his generation in Vladdy
    - A potential all-star this year behind the plate in Kirk
    - An all-star SS in Bichette
    - A potential all-star this year in Espinal



    and that doesn't even include the all-stars they have acquired to supplement those kids:

    Springer
    Chapman
    Gausman
    Berrios


    All this and you guys want to bicker about what happened 5 years ago?
    No bart, we can never stop talking about this. Weíre positioned to be a powerhouse for the foreseeable future but it wouldíve been better if things went Chongís way.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  7. #6517
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    Quote Originally Posted by bartron_44 View Post
    Of course it would have been ideal to get Bader and Flaherty (if that offer was indeed real and not just fake news) for Donaldson as well as whatever they could have gotten for Martin, Happ, Estrada and Liriano. All of whom were coming off string 2016 seasons (.....well at least Liriano's time with the Jays was solid).

    Happ went 20-4 in 2016 with a 3.18 ERA and had 2 years of control
    Estrada was an all-star in 2016 and was coming off back-to-back solid seasons and had 2 years of control
    Liriano had a 2.92 ERA over 50 innings down the stretch
    Martin started 120 games at C in 2016 with 20 HR's and 74 RBI...and received MVP votes in 13, 14 and 15.

    So of course hindsight says it would have been better to rebuild earlier.


    On a more current note. I would love to see them call up Samad Taylor and cut Bradley Zimmer. I know his D in CF lets us DH Springer some, but I think they could simply play Tapia instead in those spots and be OK. Taylor is having another great season and is red hot. He is 9 for 20 with 3 doubles and 3 SB's in his last 5 games and this year he is hitting .377/.459/.547 against LHP. Zimmer is 7 for 62 ffs.
    Well I for one wanted the rebuild at the time. It was a no brainer and I don't say that to insult anyone on here, but it was fairly evident with the age and regressive numbers of some players. Josh was the big one. He was po'd with the front office and STL wanted him as did other teams. His injury woes after not getting dealt were interesting... even though I like the idea of Samad Taylor, he's not on the 40 I believe, and that's a whole other can of corn. Removing Zimmer is a plus, but if Samad needs to get sent down and we need his 40 spot... well there's another spec lost as I'm sure he would get claimed. I wish Tapia was better in CF, or better yet, can we accept he is not Zimmer CF level good? I could.

  8. #6518
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    https://blogs.fangraphs.com/evaluati...nto-blue-jays/

    I see a few tradable assets there. Alford was a consensus top 100 prospect. If the power of hindsight doesnít tell you that getting soemthing for him during our 2016 run wouldnít have been better than nothing.. I donít know. Youíre right this convo cannot go anywhere.
    Thatís an ugly list of prospects. Connor Greene at #2. The blog says that the farm is barren at first glance and that you need to dig deep to see what the potential in them. I donít think itís helping your argument.

  9. #6519
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    I understand why they lied to fans in 2017, they were milking the dumb fans. I get it, but that doesnít mean I have to like it.

    Iím not even leaning on the fact that I was saying these things at the time either. Iím asking for the fans to use the obvious hindsight to admit ďyeah that would have been idealĒ.

    Iím not dissapointed with where the team currently is, but it obviously would be nice to have something to show for some of those assets on the roster right now. Not sure why that is so hard to admit.

    I think people confuse me with spiderdan a lot and get defensive. Iím a fan too yo! Canít we just talk logically about baseball without some people feeling like Iím attacking their wife?
    And thatís all fine Chong. The problem is when you hold it against them and they get called stupid for going the route they went when itís very obvious why they did what they did. What we should be talking about is how brilliant they are for not going the Leafs route and trading the Vladís and Boís to prop that aging, salary bloated team up (who was the Colorado OF that was rumoured?). That took restraint and put us in the position we are in today. Could they have made some better moves? Of course. But they also havenít made any bad moves yet that have compromised our future. And letís not forget how many people didnít want to give this front office any chance just because Cleveland.

  10. #6520
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    No bart, we can never stop talking about this. Weíre positioned to be a powerhouse for the foreseeable future but it wouldíve been better if things went Chongís way.
    This is true, but please move on.

  11. #6521
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    Thatís an ugly list of prospects. Connor Greene at #2. The blog says that the farm is barren at first glance and that you need to dig deep to see what the potential in them. I donít think itís helping your argument.
    Ugly list of prospects, not a terrible list of tradable assets. Greene and Alford both top 100. Your glad we hung onto them though?

  12. #6522
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    And thatís all fine Chong. The problem is when you hold it against them and they get called stupid for going the route they went when itís very obvious why they did what they did. What we should be talking about is how brilliant they are for not going the Leafs route and trading the Vladís and Boís to prop that aging, salary bloated team up (who was the Colorado OF that was rumoured?). That took restraint and put us in the position we are in today. Could they have made some better moves? Of course. But they also havenít made any bad moves yet that have compromised our future. And letís not forget how many people didnít want to give this front office any chance just because Cleveland.
    Iím not calling anyone stupid other than the fans that thought the team could win in 2017.

    This started with me complimenting Atkins recent FA spending and a subtle jab at the tear down not being ideal, specifically merryweather for Donaldson.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Donít get me started.

    Atkins seems to be doing a better job of spending money then he did tearing it down, so at least there is that.
    From there itís just been Reed and his red herrings; trying to twist my words into something that doesnít make sense, playing(being?) dumb and making me repeat myself.

  13. #6523
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Ugly list of prospects, not a terrible list of tradable assets. Greene and Alford both top 100. Your glad we hung onto them though?
    Pretty terrible list of tradable assets. Itís probably why Greene was dealt for your favourite Blue Jay, Randall Grichuk.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  14. #6524
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Iím not calling anyone stupid other than the fans that thought the team could win in 2017.

    This started with me complimenting Atkins recent FA spending and a subtle jab at the tear down not being ideal, specifically merryweather for Donaldson.



    From there itís just been Reed and his red herrings; trying to twist my words into something that doesnít make sense, playing(being?) dumb and making me repeat myself.
    About those red herringsÖ
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  15. #6525
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    About those red herringsÖ
    Exactly the post I expected from you. Completely wrong and makes no sense. Literally exactly what I described above:
    ď trying to twist my words into something that doesnít make sense, playing(being?) dumb and making me repeat myself.Ē

    Meh not taking the bait.

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