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  1. #6496
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Even when theyíre only 22 and still pre arb?
    Thatís a hell of a ****ing trade piece. Yes, I definitely wish he was traded in 2016 offseason.
    You should too. Iím really not sure what youíre trying to argue here.

  2. #6497
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    A 22 year old closer is useless on a rebuilding team? How long were you planning to rebuild for, 6 or 7 years?

    Whatís this downgrade at SP you speak of? If I may take a page out of your book. Which player is better?

    Player A: 4.73 ERA 64.2 IP 0.3 WAR
    Player B: 5.32 ERA 47.1 IP -0.1 WAR
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Why make me repeat myself? Stroman is better than berrios and the stats back that up.
    So which player is better, A or B?
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  3. #6498
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    So which player is better, A or B?
    I agree with Chong that Stroman has had a better career to date. But he's now 31, and I believe Berrios, (28 yo), will outperform Stroman this year and in the years ahead. I would prefer Berrios classy behavior over our former drama queen every day of the week. I'm truly not sorry Stroman is gone.

  4. #6499
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Thatís a hell of a ****ing trade piece. Yes, I definitely wish he was traded in 2016 offseason.
    You should too. Iím really not sure what youíre trying to argue here.
    Just curious, what would your long term plan be? Sell off assets immediately following every playoff appearance? You do remember that had just gone to the playoffs and were looking at running it back with basically the same team right?

  5. #6500
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sasky05 View Post
    I agree with Chong that Stroman has had a better career to date. But he's now 31, and I believe Berrios, (28 yo), will outperform Stroman this year and in the years ahead. I would prefer Berrios classy behavior over our former drama queen every day of the week. I'm truly not sorry Stroman is gone.
    Yes and no. Berrios has 2 seasons with WAR over 4. Stroman has never had one.

    I love Stroman too, but yeah, there were a lot of clubhouse issues with the guy.

  6. #6501
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    So which player is better, A or B?
    Stroman is better than berrios, and the numbers back it up.

  7. #6502
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    Just curious, what would your long term plan be? Sell off assets immediately following every playoff appearance? You do remember that had just gone to the playoffs and were looking at running it back with basically the same team right?
    Youíre misremembering. In 2016 we limped to the WC, and then we proceeded to lose encarnacion.

    I fully support going for it in 2016, if youíre really going to go for it. Alford at least should have been moved to add pieces. I did not feel that grilli and Benoit were ďgo for itĒ moves. Those were bandaids. If youíre going to go for it, go for it. Try to win a championship now.

    But after 2016 the team was completely cooked and every season they spent acting like this team could win anything was a waste of dwindling assets.

    Even though I WAS saying these same things at the time, we should all be using the power of hindsight to clearly understand that this is obvious.

  8. #6503
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Stroman is better than berrios, and the numbers back it up.
    Funny how you didnít cite said numbers. Oh well, Iíll take your word for it.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  9. #6504
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Youíre misremembering. In 2016 we limped to the WC, and then we proceeded to lose encarnacion.

    I fully support going for it in 2016, if youíre really going to go for it. Alford at least should have been moved to add pieces. I did not feel that grilli and Benoit were ďgo for itĒ moves. Those were bandaids. If youíre going to go for it, go for it. Try to win a championship now.

    But after 2016 the team was completely cooked and every season they spent acting like this team could win anything was a waste of dwindling assets.

    Even though I WAS saying these same things at the time, we should all be using the power of hindsight to clearly understand that this is obvious.
    Anthony Alford wouldíve had to fill a lot of holes because the rest of the farm had been depleted on rentals and Tulo who was making 20+ mil a year for 3 or 4 more years. Benoit and Grilli were absolutely bandaids because there was no prospect capital to deal from.

    Thereís also the issue of the Jays having a payroll around 190 million at the time with close to half of it going to Martin, Tulo, JD and Jose. I know youíve said we could sell them off but itís not exactly easy to find a buyer for struggling vets on the wrong side of 30 who make 20 mil or so a year.

    Itís not that Iím being willfully ignorant to what youíre saying but more so you being willfully ignorant to the context of the situation. Adding to a team full of aging/struggling vets would be a mistake. Even if they wanted to add, the prospects they had to make deals with were Alford and Pompey. This is because AA traded 10 or so prospects at the previous deadline. Your plan to sell off makes no sense either. Who in the right mind would deal for Russ or Tulo? Also selling off arms who are in their early 20ís wouldíve been completely counterproductive to a potential rebuild.

    Atkins missed the boat on JD though and realistically he was the only piece that wouldíve garnered any sort of return. The plan he went through with actually went pretty well. Signing/dealing for cheap reclamation projects then flipping them for prospects while using his elite drafting skills to stock the farm. We ended up with Teoscar, Espinal, Berrios, Tuggs and Thornton off the top of my head.

    The fact that youíre still being critical of how everything went is pretty adorable though. This team is currently in the best position itís ever been in and itís all thanks to Daddy Atkins. We have multiple all star players who havenít even hit 25, all star calibre veterans and a farm that stays in the top 5 despite plucking from it each year. Oh and they still have plenty of money to spend. The next 5 years are going to be amazing for Jays fans. Probably more than 5 honestly.
    Last edited by R. Johnson#3; 06-14-2022 at 04:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  10. #6505
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Funny how you didnít cite said numbers. Oh well, Iíll take your word for it.
    I did in an earlier post. A post you acknowledged.

  11. #6506
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    Quote Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3 View Post
    Anthony Alford wouldíve had to fill a lot of holes because the rest of the farm had been depleted on rentals and Tulo who was making 20+ mil a year for 3 or 4 more years. Benoit and Grilli were absolutely bandaids because there was no prospect capital to deal from.

    Thereís also the issue of the Jays having a payroll around 190 million at the time with close to half of it going to Martin, Tulo, JD and Jose. I know youíve said we could sell them off but itís not exactly easy to find a buyer for struggling vets on the wrong side of 30 who make 20 mil or so a year.

    Itís not that Iím being willfully ignorant to what youíre saying but more so you being willfully ignorant to the context of the situation. Adding to a team full of aging/struggling vets would be a mistake. Even if they wanted to add, the prospects they had to make deals with were Alford and Pompey. This is because AA traded 10 or so prospects at the previous deadline. Your plan to sell off makes no sense either. Who in the right mind would deal for Russ or Tulo? Also selling off arms who are in their early 20ís wouldíve been completely counterproductive to a potential rebuild.

    Atkins missed the boat on JD though and realistically he was the only piece that wouldíve garnered any sort of return. The plan he went through with actually went pretty well. Signing/dealing for cheap reclamation projects then flipping them for prospects while using his elite drafting skills to stock the farm. We ended up with Teoscar, Espinal, Berrios, Tuggs and Thornton off the top of my head.

    The fact that youíre still being critical of how everything went is pretty adorable though. This team is currently in the best position itís ever been in and itís all thanks to Daddy Atkins. We have multiple all star players who havenít even hit 25, all star calibre veterans and a farm that stays in the top 5 despite plucking from it each year. Oh and they still have plenty of money to spend. The next 5 years are going to be amazing for Jays fans. Probably more than 5 honestly.
    Iím not even being critical. I didnít want to go down this path, I just took your bait.
    With the power of hindsight, this stuff should all be obvious if you take off the blinders. The fact that I was saying the same things at the time are only the cherry.

  12. #6507
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    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Youíre misremembering. In 2016 we limped to the WC, and then we proceeded to lose encarnacion.

    I fully support going for it in 2016, if youíre really going to go for it. Alford at least should have been moved to add pieces. I did not feel that grilli and Benoit were ďgo for itĒ moves. Those were bandaids. If youíre going to go for it, go for it. Try to win a championship now.

    But after 2016 the team was completely cooked and every season they spent acting like this team could win anything was a waste of dwindling assets.

    Even though I WAS saying these same things at the time, we should all be using the power of hindsight to clearly understand that this is obvious.
    I had a big long response typed out, but I'd rather not get into it. If you think guys like Anthony Alford and Ryan Borucki were getting us anything, that's on you, and until you reconcile the actual value of those prospects, there will be no movement in this conversation.

  13. #6508
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    I had a big long response typed out, but I'd rather not get into it. If you think guys like Anthony Alford and Ryan Borucki were getting us anything, that's on you, and until you reconcile the actual value of those prospects, there will be no movement in this conversation.
    https://blogs.fangraphs.com/evaluati...nto-blue-jays/

    I see a few tradable assets there. Alford was a consensus top 100 prospect. If the power of hindsight doesnít tell you that getting soemthing for him during our 2016 run wouldnít have been better than nothing.. I donít know. Youíre right this convo cannot go anywhere.

  14. #6509
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    Quote Originally Posted by mike_noodles View Post
    I had a big long response typed out, but I'd rather not get into it. If you think guys like Anthony Alford and Ryan Borucki were getting us anything, that's on you, and until you reconcile the actual value of those prospects, there will be no movement in this conversation.
    Donít forget SRF and that catcher who was really good but injured for 8 years.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChongInc. View Post
    Facts can be hypothetical.

  15. #6510
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    Jan 2009
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    I remember your feelings on the subject pretty well Chong, the only problem was they couldn't blow up the team after missing the playoffs for 20 years and then going to the ALCS in back to back years. They just failed that off season by losing EE after he didn't accept their (in hindsight) generous offer before exploring the market. Then Donaldson missed like 50 games, Travis missed ~100 games and Tulo missed ~100 games. So they were running out Barney, Goins and a catcher who couldn't hit half the time. Not to mention Sanchez missed essentially the entire season after going 15-2 the year before and looking like a future ace. That team was better than a 76 win team on paper and they could have gotten back into the playoffs with 85 wins. They owed it to the fans and also guys like Martin, Tulo to go for it one more time. (They obviously cared about not chasing the fans off again so quickly after just getting them back because they found more money suddenly late in the off season to bring back Bautista after they found out they lost EE. )

    In hindsight even if they got EE instead of Bautista they still weren't making it with all the injuries they suffered, but if just Sanchez has another solid season they would have come pretty darn close to making it back to the dance.


    However, can we stop talking about 2017 when we have:

    - A guy like Gabriel Moreno looking like the next Yadier Molina behind the plate
    - One of the best SP in baseball in Manoah
    - One of the best hitters of his generation in Vladdy
    - A potential all-star this year behind the plate in Kirk
    - An all-star SS in Bichette
    - A potential all-star this year in Espinal



    and that doesn't even include the all-stars they have acquired to supplement those kids:

    Springer
    Chapman
    Gausman
    Berrios


    All this and you guys want to bicker about what happened 5 years ago?

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