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  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Mago50 View Post
    Our team has been notoriously known for trying to patch holes in the past and never go through a necessary extended rebuilding process, whether overpaying Antonio Davis, Boogie and JYD back in the day, trading first rounders for an over-the-hill Hakeem, trading a young bright center and hot PG commodity for a one legged center or wasting multiple picks on a guy like Carlos Delfino.

    Obviously, we aren't one to like to take a step back and do things the right way, but I trully believe that another year or two playing the youngsters and focusing on adding assets through the draft would do this team all the good in the world. That being said, outside of maybe a couple gambles (i.e. Oden), I don't see anything in this year's free agent crop that doesn't ring the "overpaid" bell.

    Personally, if we miss out on Kyrie, I would grab a guy like Valcuianus and store him in Europe, allowing us to have another down year and not get the benefit of that pick potentially being a big contributor next year. I would take a filer on Oden or Dalembert to make us respectable on the interior defensively with a potential big upside on Oden's potential addition. On our current roster, I'd keep Davis, Bayless and Amir available for the right deal involving future firsts and other assets that might help our cause.

    Derozen and Bargnani, while many people are skeptical of the pairing (mostly Bargnani), have the potential to be an absolutely lethal offensive duo for this team.
    -Bargnani is a guy that can score from anywhere on the floor and once he gets a few more of his spots on the floor down (i.e. another post move, solidified baseline turn around, etc), I believe that Bargnani can be a guy that averages 25-26 PPG in this league. Similarly,
    -Demar at this point is just still a predictable slasher with only one trusted move (spin left), alright handles and an improved midrange jumper. If we learned anything from Derrick Rose who was a brutal free throw, 3pt and jump shooter up until this year, it's that with Demar's work ethic and drive, could easily take a similar jump. A guy who can already efficiently average 17 PPG with what he's working with currently can easily become a potential 25 PPG guy down the line. but otherwise, have an actual rebuild, not another partial one.

    While those two cornerstones have a lot to improve on defensively, rebounding wise, etc., I believe the building with these two would continue to be the best course of action. That being said, what would you guys ideally want to see for this team,
    That being said along with the previous stuff, we need a real rebuild around these two, not another partial one by settling for overpaying for guys that will give us a chance to merely be playoff bound and be someone's ragdoll.

    Ideally, what direction and moves would you guys like to see our team make in terms of persone moves, coaching, team makeup, and building towards an actual contender with an outlook on not only this season but with a long term scope for the future success of our team?
    I wouldnt build around bargs. Its been 5 years and has defensive has not improved, rebounding has not improved. If he can prove that he can do play defence, and rebound than we will talk.

    We build around Demar, Ed and hopefull Kyrie, if not than we have to add another strong piece, considering what the league is turning into. All good teams have 2-4 players that are great.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddler The Gr8 View Post
    5 years/35 mil is too much for a backup PF imo...and Ed/Amir are very similar and bring too much of the same element. we need our team to be well-rounded.
    actually its 30 mill

    $5.0 million owed in 2010-2011, $5.52 million owed in 2011-2012, $6.050 million owed in 2012-2013, $6.57 million owed in 2013-2014 and $7.10 million owed in 2014-2015 for a total of $30 million to Toronto's Amir Johnson...
    and we have a team option for the last year if we don't pick it up in reality its only 23 mill over four years we owe him

    Quite frankly, I don't understand this. While Davis and Amir play the same position, I'm not sure how that makes one of them redundant. You still need, at least, three quality big men if you hope to be a decent team. And neither Amir nor Davis have the type of games that will get in the way of one another. This isn't Jermaine O'Neal and Bosh, or Calderon and Turkoglu. We've seen both Amir and Davis work well when they're on the floor together. Because he can hit the 15 footer and play the high pick and roll, Amir has done very well in the high post, while Davis seems best suited for the low post.

    would you rather have a bargnani type coming of the bench for davis redundancy isn't necessarily a bad tihng i would understand if amir was keeping davis from starting but it's not like that amir would be a very nice big man off the bench.
    Last edited by juno10; 04-20-2011 at 09:42 PM.

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by achha100 View Post
    Disagree. They're both pretty different players and just because they hustle and play more D than Bargs does doesn't make them similar. Amir can easily play some minutes at the 5 for when we decide to go small and run. He's lethal on the fast break and pretty good finishing at the rim on the pick and roll. Plus Ed wears a headband and Amir doesn't.

    People keep saying he's (Amir) reached his ceiling, but thats a major assumption. He worked on his game and developed a better jumper this year. Why can't he keep improving?
    well said

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by achha100 View Post
    Disagree. They're both pretty different players and just because they hustle and play more D than Bargs does doesn't make them similar. Amir can easily play some minutes at the 5 for when we decide to go small and run. He's lethal on the fast break and pretty good finishing at the rim on the pick and roll. Plus Ed wears a headband and Amir doesn't.

    People keep saying he's (Amir) reached his ceiling, but thats a major assumption. He worked on his game and developed a better jumper this year. Why can't he keep improving?
    I agree that while he's 24, he has largely become what he's going to become. Will he develop a better midrange game? Yes. But will he vastly improve over what he is now? I don't think so. He's a guy that when all the marbles fall into place could average Drew Gooden like numbers (14 and 9 ish) but he's not a dominant athlete, he's not overpowering, he's not overly tall (6'9 might even be a stretch since I've seen him in person and I'm 6'7) and I just don't think your 3rd big on the team should be making 5 for 35 million. There are plenty of big guys that could bring 3/4ths of what he brings that could be had at half the price.

  5. #20
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    I'm comfortable with a big rotation of Kanter, Amir and Ed

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by juno10 View Post
    actually its 30 mill



    and we have a team option for the last year if we don't pick it up in reality its only 23 mill over four years we owe him

    Quite frankly, I don't understand this. While Davis and Amir play the same position, I'm not sure how that makes one of them redundant. You still need, at least, three quality big men if you hope to be a decent team. And neither Amir nor Davis have the type of games that will get in the way of one another. This isn't Jermaine O'Neal and Bosh, or Calderon and Turkoglu. We've seen both Amir and Davis work well when they're on the floor together. Because he can hit the 15 footer and play the high pick and roll, Amir has done very well in the high post, while Davis seems best suited for the low post.
    They aren't the same player but the fact is, they are the same size/body type. Neither are great defenders and neither are scary inside presences. You don't even necessarily need to have two seven footers, but you need to have at least one guy down there or playing 25-30 in the rotation that is a legit 6'11-7'0 defensive shutdown guy.

    Davis and Amir could succeed on offense and both be 14-8 guys, but defensively, they would get eaten alive by non-stop penetration, bigger guys and schemes to expose their size.

    In the end, what makes the lakers scary inside isn't the fact that they have two seven footers down there, it's that the players playing offense against the Lakers see these two big guys down there and it's frankly intimidating to drive towards, like a huge psychological ploy. Our second biggest problem with stopping people inside is that when people see Amir, Andrea and Ed, not one person in this league not named Luke Walton is afraid to attack those guys.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Mago50 View Post
    IMO, Val is not a project. A project is a guy who is just learning how to play basketball and is developing a feel for the game. Val is a guy who has dominated at every level he's played with his skills, the only thing he really needs to do is get stronger and add some weight which is more physical maturity and less skill development.
    I'm not saying Val isn't good but there's always that risk of him being another Darko. Whereas Kanter already seems to know what he's doing and is prone to do well in the NBA.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Mago50 View Post
    I like Gasol but I think for the amount of money he's going to make, he's not worth it. He's tough as nails, good defensively, etc. but he's going to be making possibly Carlos Boozer like money and he is not worth that. I would rather take a cheaper risk on Oden or draft Val and grab a guy like Dalembert who can be had for a 2-3 year deal while Val develops.
    that's why i suggested trading Bargnani and Amir. getting rid of those contracts would make it better for us, cap-wise.
    Also, I don't know why people haven't proposed this, but I would try to grab O.J. Mayo for this team and we definitely have the assets for that type of pick-up. The guy has superstar written all over him and is one of the hardest working, smartest and most competitive young players in the league. He will be an all-star at some point in the future and getting him while his value is down will do wonders as well as drastically improve our perimeter defense with his presence.
    we already have Derozan, and he's better as a 2 because he has a good size advantage over alot of guys. i don't really like him as a full-time 3.
    Quote Originally Posted by achha100 View Post
    Disagree. They're both pretty different players and just because they hustle and play more D than Bargs does doesn't make them similar. Amir can easily play some minutes at the 5 for when we decide to go small and run. He's lethal on the fast break and pretty good finishing at the rim on the pick and roll. Plus Ed wears a headband and Amir doesn't.

    People keep saying he's (Amir) reached his ceiling, but thats a major assumption. He worked on his game and developed a better jumper this year. Why can't he keep improving?
    they aren't really different. Ed is better defensively and rebounding wise, Amir is more green on offense and is a little more athletic. I don't think Amir is worth 34m and is a backup imo.
    Quote Originally Posted by juno10 View Post
    actually its 30 mill
    the contract was 5 years 34 mil...regardless, i still think it's too much for a backup PF


  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by canzano55 View Post
    I'm not saying Val isn't good but there's always that risk of him being another Darko. Whereas Kanter already seems to know what he's doing and is prone to do well in the NBA.
    that's why i considered Kanter over J-Vizzle


  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Il Mago50 View Post
    They aren't the same player but the fact is, they are the same size/body type. Neither are great defenders and neither are scary inside presences. You don't even necessarily need to have two seven footers, but you need to have at least one guy down there or playing 25-30 in the rotation that is a legit 6'11-7'0 defensive shutdown guy.

    Davis and Amir could succeed on offense and both be 14-8 guys, but defensively, they would get eaten alive by non-stop penetration, bigger guys and schemes to expose their size.

    In the end, what makes the lakers scary inside isn't the fact that they have two seven footers down there, it's that the players playing offense against the Lakers see these two big guys down there and it's frankly intimidating to drive towards, like a huge psychological ploy. Our second biggest problem with stopping people inside is that when people see Amir, Andrea and Ed, not one person in this league not named Luke Walton is afraid to attack those guys.
    i see ed as our Pf of the future and amir as a back up i think that would work while bringing in a Legit C. Amir's contract is very reasonable even if he would be coming off the bench, i posted his real salary numbers couple posts up. big men are very valuable and i don't think replacing him with some scrub is a good idea worse comes to worst he's a very good asset we could use to upgrade another position.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by canzano55 View Post
    I'm not saying Val isn't good but there's always that risk of him being another Darko. Whereas Kanter already seems to know what he's doing and is prone to do well in the NBA.
    Darko was a uber athletic and very long seven footer who was was skilled. He actually would've been a top 10 center in the league though had he ended up with a team that allowed him to grow and develop. Darko is one of those guys that is an absolute mess if he doesn't have confidence. Just looked at a little stretch he had this year before he got hurt against the Lakers and a couple other teams in a row. His problem was that he immediately came over at 19 and just rotted on the bench, got no playing time and was under the infamous Larry Brown who has cracked eggs much harder then Darko. He lost confidence in his abilities and probably stopped putting in the effort because he wasn't rewarded for it before, a mentality which is his fault to an extent although you can't really blame him for it.

    If you allow Val not only to further develop and grow, but to mentally mature and gain that swagger and confidence, he will be a very good player,

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddler The Gr8 View Post
    that's why i suggested trading Bargnani and Amir. getting rid of those contracts would make it better for us, cap-wise.

    we already have Derozan, and he's better as a 2 because he has a good size advantage over alot of guys. i don't really like him as a full-time 3.

    they aren't really different. Ed is better defensively and rebounding wise, Amir is more green on offense and is a little more athletic. I don't think Amir is worth 34m and is a backup imo.


    the contract was 5 years 34 mil...regardless, i still think it's too much for a backup PF
    http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9165

    4 years 23 mill last year non-guaranteed. i really think thats a good deal and by the time we are looking to contend his contract will look even sweeter.

  13. #28
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    I could actually live with a line-up like this:

    Bayless Calderon
    Derozan Barbosa
    T. Prince JJ/Kleiza
    Amir Ed/Evans
    Kanter Bargs/Ed/??


    You get defense/rebounding in the starting lineup, the bench has scoring that can pick up the offensive load against other benches.
    Last edited by canzano55; 04-20-2011 at 10:02 PM.

  14. #29
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    Bargnani is way too expensive to be a bench player. either trade or start him


  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saddler The Gr8 View Post
    Bargnani is way too expensive to be a bench player. either trade or start him
    definitely trade him but for the life of me i can't think of any team who would want him.

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