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  1. #31
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    ^ good article, thanks.

    i would point out however that there is more interaction and less isolation in baseball than one may think. every base runner and batter looks to coaches for what to do next. pitchers and catchers need to constantly be on the same page, as do position players when fielding balls, backing up plays, cutting off throws, etc. it isn't like most team sports, but it is still certainly interactive.

    i also have to disagree with your assertion that "some guys are better at hitting in the clutch: the same players that are better at hitting in every other situation." that's simply not true. in the playoffs, would you rather have A-Rod or Jeter at the plate in a clutch situation? while A-Rod may have enjoyed a better year statistically in just about every major category, i'd still want jeter every time until A-Rod proves otherwise.
    Last edited by friarfan07; 07-25-2008 at 06:00 PM.

  2. #32
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    also, i just noticed something about that article. it was interesting and i learned a lot, but one part that bugged me was when they pointed out RISP situations actually yielded higher OBP than non-RISP situations. well, one thing i didn't see taken into account in the set of numbers presented was the intentional walk, which is pretty common with a guy in scoring position, either to hope to produce a double play, or to take the bat out of a good/clutch hitter's hands. this would definitely factor in to OBP being higher in RISP situations. when they removed the IBB, it showed guys to hit worse in RISP situations, leading me to maintain my value of guys who can hit in the clutch.
    Last edited by friarfan07; 07-25-2008 at 09:03 PM.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by friarfan07 View Post
    ^ good article, thanks.

    i would point out however that there is more interaction and less isolation in baseball than one may think. every base runner and batter looks to coaches for what to do next. pitchers and catchers need to constantly be on the same page, as do position players when fielding balls, backing up plays, cutting off throws, etc. it isn't like most team sports, but it is still certainly interactive.
    You are right. There are interactions in baseball, but they really don't have the ability to affect your performance most of the time. For example, if one if your teammates doesn't pass you the ball, you don't get it, and it really goes unnoticed. In baseball, when is something like that going to happen? Your SS or 2B have to throw you the ball executing a double play, or else they get benched.

    i also have to disagree with your assertion that "some guys are better at hitting in the clutch: the same players that are better at hitting in every other situation." that's simply not true. in the playoffs, would you rather have A-Rod or Jeter at the plate in a clutch situation? while A-Rod may have enjoyed a better year statistically in just about every major category, i'd still want jeter every time until A-Rod proves otherwise.
    This is where you can say "clutch exists in your mind". You think someone is clutch because of the highlights, but it's not really like that. Let's see how A-Rod and Jeter have fared in high leverage situations. Leverage is basically how crucial a certain at-bat in a game is. The higher the leverage, the more crucial This is how the 2 have done:

    Jeter: .373/.433/.471 (.904)

    Alex Rodriguez: .307/.395/.587 (.981)

    As you can see, A-Rod has the higher OPS. Yeah, Jeter has the higher batting average, but Jeter has the highest batting average in EVERY situation. It's not a matter of clutch or unclutch.

    also, i just noticed something about that article. it was interesting and i learned a lot, but one part that bugged me was when they pointed out RISP situations actually yielded higher OBP than non-RISP situations. well, one thing i didn't see taken into account in the set of numbers presented was the intentional walk, which is pretty common with a guy in scoring position, either to hope to produce a double play, or to take the bat out of a good/clutch hitter's hands. this would difinitely factor in to OBP being higher in RISP situations. when they removed the IBB, it showed guys to hit worse in RISP situations, leading me to maintain my value of guys who can hit in the clutch.
    That just showed players hit worse with RISP. The opposite of clutch.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seamhead View Post
    Because players don't control when they hit, they just hit. The research has already been done, and there is NO year-to-year correlation for hitting with runners in scoring position. The same has been done for "Clutch", and most studies find NO clutch hitting. There have been some that found a little bit of ability, but it was nothing significant.
    have you ever played this game? that is so far from the truth. in a "clutch" spot hitters and pitchers both focus more, both know the importance of the ab, a risp especially with 2 outs would be one of those "clutch" situations
    Quote Originally Posted by gkar View Post
    Why be rational when you can do this and then keep getting after a great Padre win?

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by giles and giles View Post
    have you ever played this game? that is so far from the truth. in a "clutch" spot hitters and pitchers both focus more, both know the importance of the ab, a risp especially with 2 outs would be one of those "clutch" situations
    They focus more? You're implying that "clutch" hitters aren't focused in low pressure situations. I'm not sure you're argument holds any water.
    beatin down yo block

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Humongo View Post
    They focus more? You're implying that "clutch" hitters aren't focused in low pressure situations. I'm not sure you're argument holds any water.
    yes they do. i can relate to pitching more because im a pitcher but when the tying run is on 3rd and 2 outs you are more focused than in the 3rd inning with nobody out. I never said an unclutch player wasnt focused more he jsut cant handle the pressure because while while you notice that runner on third you know the thought crosses through the back of your mind what if i make this mistake.. same thing when your hitting, if you need to get a hit some players cant take the pressure of knowing they need to do something. sometimes they think to much aka focus to much.


    does anyone play this game at a high level and know what im getting at? in certain situations the game is jsut different
    Quote Originally Posted by gkar View Post
    Why be rational when you can do this and then keep getting after a great Padre win?

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by giles and giles View Post
    have you ever played this game? that is so far from the truth. in a "clutch" spot hitters and pitchers both focus more, both know the importance of the ab, a risp especially with 2 outs would be one of those "clutch" situations
    Far from the truth. I do play baseball, and am a position player. I focus equally on every at-bat, unless there's a fine girl in the stands.

    I do agree that there are clutch situations, there just aren't clutch players. Clutch implies that a player can raise his performance in critical situations. That just doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't he raise his performance in every other situation? On top of that, the numbers have not found any sort of clutch ability, as you can see in that article.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seamhead View Post
    Far from the truth. I do play baseball, and am a position player. I focus equally on every at-bat, unless there's a fine girl in the stands.

    I do agree that there are clutch situations, there just aren't clutch players. Clutch implies that a player can raise his performance in critical situations. That just doesn't make sense. Why wouldn't he raise his performance in every other situation? On top of that, the numbers have not found any sort of clutch ability, as you can see in that article.
    well its pretty obvious you arent a clutch player because it is possible. players CAN raise their game. there is an extra gear that good players just have personally i think it is adrenalene but it could be something else, maybe you could find some research for that as you can tell im not big into i go with my gut feeling and to be quite honest most of the time im right.


    p.s. what level do you play at?
    Quote Originally Posted by gkar View Post
    Why be rational when you can do this and then keep getting after a great Padre win?

  9. #39
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    i think the disagreement here is that you think there are no such things as clutch players; there are just players who can hit, and those who can't. speaking from experience, i have found there to be those who can deal with pressure better than others. people get tight, try to be the hero by swinging too hard, change their mechanics and all sorts of other things when they become nervous in a clutch situation. some athletes are better at dealing with it while some, no matter how much talent they have or how good they do in lower pressure situations, just can't gain the psychological edge to overcome their nervousness. i think there's a lot to sports psychology.
    Last edited by friarfan07; 07-26-2008 at 01:45 PM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by giles and giles View Post
    well its pretty obvious you arent a clutch player because it is possible. players CAN raise their game. there is an extra gear that good players just have personally i think it is adrenalene but it could be something else, maybe you could find some research for that as you can tell im not big into i go with my gut feeling and to be quite honest most of the time im right.


    p.s. what level do you play at?
    No, they can't. There have been countless numbers of studies that have shown players can not raise their level of performance/

    All you have are anecdotes, and anecdotes is not a plural for data.

    I play high school baseball. Sophomore this season, and I'll be getting some playing time for varsity. Used to play travel ball, but I play soccer, too, and can't handle all that.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seamhead View Post
    No, they can't. There have been countless numbers of studies that have shown players can not raise their level of performance/

    All you have are anecdotes, and anecdotes is not a plural for data.

    I play high school baseball. Sophomore this season, and I'll be getting some playing time for varsity. Used to play travel ball, but I play soccer, too, and can't handle all that.
    players can! then how do you explain someone like josh beckett? yes he is a good pitcher in the regular season but is just plain dominate in the playoffs? at certain times players can find something extra.

    maybe you havent experienced this because all you have played in freshman baseball but at higher levels the intensity is greater you will find out one day, get back to me when you get into college
    Quote Originally Posted by gkar View Post
    Why be rational when you can do this and then keep getting after a great Padre win?

  12. #42
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    just so happens im on padres.com and i found this..

    PITTSBURGH -- Heath Bell said after the Padres' hard-fought 6-5 win over the Pirates that sometimes a team has to make its own breaks.
    That's exactly what the Friars did on Friday night at PNC Park, with Bell leading the way.

    The Padres reliever came into the eighth inning with a two-run lead, but after giving up two singles and hitting a batter, Bell found himself in a no-out, bases-loaded situation.

    "I had to kick it up in high gear," Bell said.
    thats weird a MLB player just said he had to kick it up to high gear but according to you and your studies that isnt possible
    Quote Originally Posted by gkar View Post
    Why be rational when you can do this and then keep getting after a great Padre win?

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by giles and giles View Post
    just so happens im on padres.com and i found this..



    thats weird a MLB player just said he had to kick it up to high gear but according to you and your studies that isnt possible
    So you're using a player's testimony to defend your point? That's not very smart, considering players have a bias towards everything that they say related to baseball. Of course he's going to say he kicked into high gear, but does he really have the ability to elevate his game? No.

    As for Beckett, he's already a very good pitcher. And using the playoffs as a point isn't smart either, considering the playoffs are a tiny sample size. What if we gave Beckett 200 innings with a playoff like atmosphere and goals. He would regress to his mean.

    Like I said, anecdotes is not the plural of data.

  14. #44
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    ^ right, but the fact is, the playoffs (and clutch situations for that matter) are not large sample sizes because that's the way the game is set up. in the limited times (playoffs or tight spots in games), certain players can perform better than others. they just have more control of their nerves.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seamhead View Post
    So you're using a player's testimony to defend your point? That's not very smart, considering players have a bias towards everything that they say related to baseball. Of course he's going to say he kicked into high gear, but does he really have the ability to elevate his game? No.

    As for Beckett, he's already a very good pitcher. And using the playoffs as a point isn't smart either, considering the playoffs are a tiny sample size. What if we gave Beckett 200 innings with a playoff like atmosphere and goals. He would regress to his mean.

    Like I said, anecdotes is not the plural of data.
    why isnt using players testimony not smart? arent we talking about baseball players? i consider myself a baseball player considering i still play baseball and im pretty sure heath bell is a baseball player, thats 2 for 2 for me so far.

    give me a bucket of baseballs and catcher and ill throw as hard as i can but give me 1 ball in a big game at school and i PROMISE you it will be harder than any ball in that bucket, its just how things work
    Quote Originally Posted by gkar View Post
    Why be rational when you can do this and then keep getting after a great Padre win?

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