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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeIfBaerga View Post
    Wow, you guys need to grow up and stop arguing like children. Arguing over who "won" and calling each other idiots? Jesus, c'mon.


    The fact is, Lester is not going to be an all time great, so comparing him to Pedro, Schilling, Johan, Maddux, etc is just foolish. He'll be a decent starter and an important piece to a winning team if he develops his command with potential for more if he can refine everything. He's not Maddux, he's not Pedro. He's more like Andy Pettite, decent, important, valuable.
    no im not arguing who won and im not the one calling people idiots, i was simply stating my case for why lester is no more than a number 4 or 5 starter

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by bosox1899 View Post
    no im not arguing who won and im not the one calling people idiots, i was simply stating my case for why lester is no more than a number 4 or 5 starter


    At this point? You're right. However, he's got potential to be much more, and is only some fastball command away from that. Like I said before, I think last night was a step forward if he can continue it for another start or two.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeIfBaerga View Post
    At this point? You're right. However, he's got potential to be much more, and is only some fastball command away from that. Like I said before, I think last night was a step forward if he can continue it for another start or two.
    yea i had posted that if lester can pitch similar to last night with less hits allowed for at least 4 or 5 more starts in a row then id be more confident in him

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by bosox1899 View Post
    yea i had posted that if lester can pitch similar to last night with less hits allowed for at least 4 or 5 more starts in a row then id be more confident in him


    Completely reasonable. However, I still think Lester should get the nod over Buchholz, if only because Lester has less option years. Adjusting Lester to the majors needs to happen quicker because of the fact that he's got less time to develop in the bigs than Buchholz.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeIfBaerga View Post
    Completely reasonable. However, I still think Lester should get the nod over Buchholz, if only because Lester has less option years. Adjusting Lester to the majors needs to happen quicker because of the fact that he's got less time to develop in the bigs than Buchholz.
    for those reasons i have to agree, even though i rather it be Buchholz the more sensible choice is gonna be Lester . Though i dont even think its a given that colon is gonna be brought up, is it? why dont we just go to the 6 man rotation, theres good and bad things about it and prob not the smartest thing to do midseason, but itll make the decision easier
    Last edited by bosox1899; 04-20-2008 at 04:20 PM.

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by bosox1899 View Post
    first I did play baseball for over 10 years, second just because moyer was a good pitcher doesnt prove that teams NEED a lefty, we already won a WS without one as someone mentioned..

    Pedro not steller?! Becketts not stellar but still better and pettite was about the same as beckett
    Code:
      Year Ag Tm  Lg  W   L   G   GS  CG SHO  GF SV   IP     H    R   ER   HR  BB   SO  HBP  WP  BFP  IBB  BK  ERA *lgERA *ERA+ WHIP
    
    Pedro Martinez
    
     1992 20 LAD NL   0   1   2   1   0   0   1  0    8.0    6    2    2   0    1    8   0   0    31   0   0  2.25  3.47  154 0.875
     1993 21 LAD NL  10   5  65   2   0   0  20  2  107.0   76   34   31   5   57  119   4   3   444   4   1  2.61  3.84  147 1.243 RoY-9
     1994 22 MON NL  11   5  24  23   1   1   1  1  144.7  115   58   55  11   45  142  11   6   584   3   0  3.42  4.26  125 1.106
     1995 23 MON NL  14  10  30  30   2   2   0  0  194.7  158   79   76  21   66  174  11   5   784   1   2  3.51  4.31  123 1.151
    
    Josh Beckett
     2001 21 FLA NL   2   2   4   4   0   0   0  0   24.0   14    9    4   3   11   24   1   1    99   0   0  1.50  4.23  282 1.042
     2002 22 FLA NL   6   7  23  21   0   0   0  0  107.7   93   56   49  13   44  113   1   5   454   2   0  4.10  4.03   98 1.272
     2003 23 FLA NL   9   8  24  23   0   0   1  0  142.0  132   54   48   9   56  152   2   6   601   4   1  3.04  4.20  138 1.324
    Andy Pettite
    
     1995 23 NYY AL  12   9  31  26   3   0   1  0  175.0  183   86   81  15   63  114   1   8   745   3   1  4.17  4.63  111 1.406 RoY-3
     1996 24 NYY AL  21   8  35  34   2   0   1  0  221.0  229  105   95  23   72  162   3   6   929   2   1  3.87  5.00  129 1.362 MVP-14,CYA-2,AS
     1997 25 NYY AL  18   7  35  35   4   1   0  0  240.3  233   86   77   7   65  166   3   7   986   0   0  2.88  4.48  155 1.240 CYA-5
    Pedro won the ROY how is that not stellar? Well i win that one
    Beckett had a 4.1 era still better than the 4.7 with less walks and more strikeouts so i win that one too i guess
    Pettite had a 4.17 era again better than Lester

    point being is that most of those pitchers showed a slightest bit of command, so far lester has gotten worse by the innings, 4.7 now hes at a ~5.10, he hasnt shown any signs of pitching to his potential like many of those other pitchers, but lets give him a full season then ill have a better argument, my prediction would be around 190 innings, 4.90 era, 100+ BBs, 100 Ks, 7-10 (W/L)
    Except for one thing they aren't in the AL EAST! How was Beckett his first year in Boston.

    Go re-read your arguement , it was pitchers don't get better .....

    In fact every pitcher listed got a lot better. I could go on with a ZILLION different pitchers that improved dramatically over their early careers.

    Give the kid some time before you write him off. so if you played ten years you should have a clue as to why lefties cause problems. Even ones that throw 78 mph like Moyer.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by bosox1899 View Post
    for those reasons i have to agree, even though i rather it be Buchholz the more sensible choice is gonna be Lester . Though i dont even think its a given that colon is gonna be brought up, is it? why dont we just go to the 6 man rotation, theres good and bad things about it and prob not the smartest thing to do midseason, but itll make the decision easier
    Now its a 6 man rotation? We debated that last year for months.
    They said they explored it and it wasn't going to happen. Buchholz according to your logic won't improve either. What difference does it make which one......as neither can get better?

  8. #68
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    Bucholz. Lester is solid and Bucholz's ERA is pretty high, also especially since they want to limit his innings they should put him in AAA

    When will Colon come up anyway?

  9. #69
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    Colon is just starting long toss, they hope and believe he won't opt out the 1st of May. They are hoping to extend the date to the 15th, last I heard.
    He needs to throw some BP's then a game or so before a callup. We need his moxy ......and if he can't get it done we haven't lost anything. My gut tells me he will be fine, if healthy ie: better than Lester or Buchholz.

    Buchholz has NOT made a case for himself , period!

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeIfBaerga View Post
    Wow, you guys need to grow up and stop arguing like children. Arguing over who "won" and calling each other idiots? Jesus, c'mon.


    The fact is, Lester is not going to be an all time great, so comparing him to Pedro, Schilling, Johan, Maddux, etc is just foolish. He'll be a decent starter and an important piece to a winning team if he develops his command with potential for more if he can refine everything. He's not Maddux, he's not Pedro. He's more like Andy Pettite, decent, important, valuable.
    He was not being compared to any of those pitchers in terms of their long term impact. The point of comparison was his development; like them he is likely to improve as he gets more chances to face MLB lineups. As with any player, you either learn to make adjustments at each level or you don't stick. It's a worthwhile point in light of the assertion that he's worthless floatsam on Boston Harbor after 100IP in MLB.

    Quote Originally Posted by bosox1899 View Post
    buchholz had 1 bad start against the yankees, your bff lester has maybe one decent start, but if you look at their stats, buchholz has been more consistent with his control and his era has been much lower than lesters. your comparison is still ridiculous even if its this season seeing buchholz has had one bad start compared to lesters 2 to 3, you idiot

    you re calling me an idiot? after that last sentence you shouldnt even be talking, how is santana even comparable to lester? santana as buchholz had one bad start but has been consistently above average, lester has gone past the 6 inning just twice and walking 3 to 5 batters on a consistent basis.
    First of all, keep the name calling to yourself (everyone!). You either keep the conversation on baseball or you'll find yourself keeping Farnsworth company.

    Second, the superlatives you throw around are crazy. "gone past the 6 inning just twice..." True, but when you consider that he's had only five starts and we're just through the third week of April (when lots of pitchers are limited in IP anyway) that's just emotionalism.

    Should we go find out which other pitchers are in the same boat? How about Sabathia, who hasn't made it through six, let alone past it? Verlander has made it past the sixth inning just once, has allowed 3 or more BB in his last three starts, and does not have a single quality start (Lester has 2). Jon Garland has made it past the fifth "only twice" including a full body slam by TEX (whom Lester dispatched). Do these guys suck more than Lester in your view? Your measuring stick says they do. Either you're emotionally reacting to this one situation that you're close to or you think these guys all suck.
    Last edited by RedSoxtober; 04-21-2008 at 09:10 AM.

  11. #71
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    Bosox1899
    I agree, some think he ll just change all of a sudden and start throwing strikes. How? What is he gonna do change his stance? Change his arm angle? Some pitchers take a while to find their groove but most you can tell what type of pitcher they are from the first 20 starts
    I just totally disagree.

  12. #72
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    Originally Posted by ThreeIfBaerga
    Wow, you guys need to grow up and stop arguing like children. Arguing over who "won" and calling each other idiots? Jesus, c'mon.


    The fact is, Lester is not going to be an all time great, so comparing him to Pedro, Schilling, Johan, Maddux, etc is just foolish. He'll be a decent starter and an important piece to a winning team if he develops his command with potential for more if he can refine everything. He's not Maddux, he's not Pedro. He's more like Andy Pettite, decent, important, valuable.
    I was not comparing his ability, more the idea pitchers don't mature after a 100+innings. They mature over time its more a rarity when a guy comes up and dominates his first 20 starts.

    Never said he would become a star either , in fact, he could be a flop? But, at this point in time we DON'T know.

  13. #73
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    I've got to give this to Clay: he can make some adjustments. He was far less than spectacular to start (57 pitches through 3, 74 through 4) but came back to settle in pretty nicely (6IP, 103 pitches, 68 strikes).

  14. #74
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    ^^ He seems to have a higher ceiling than Lester. Lester I see as a #3 or #4 on this staff , if , he improves.

    Buchy needs to still get his pitch count down more consistently , but he has to hurry before that 20th start or he is done for.

    Buchholz , if , he keeps on maturing I see him as a #2 on this staff.

    DiceK #3 , Beckett unless his arm falls off.... numero uno.

    Next couple of years.

  15. #75
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    to me, buchholz is better than lester. i'd rather have my best pitchers pitching.

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