2021 Chicago Cubs September IGT Thread

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Originally Posted by thawv

As of right now, his control is going to hold him back. I see him more as a middle relief guy if he makes it to the bigs. He has 5+ years in the system, and he's 25 years old, and still can't throw strikes. I guess he has a nice CB too.

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Manuel Rodriguez does not throw a curveball, so I'm not entirely sure where that's coming from. He throws two variations of a fastball (a four seam and a two seam/sinker) as well as a single breaking ball, a cutter/slider. He may "call it" a curveball or something, or someone may have thought it was one during a broadcast, but it tracks as a slider/cutter exclusively with statcast and as a single breaking pitch.

Secondly, how long he's been "in the system" and "his age" is equally as irrelevant and wrong as it has been the other times you've attempted to shame a prospect or the Cubs developmental system. The player Manuel Rodriguez is today has little to do with whom he was a few years ago; he's a vastly different player. He's put on significant muscle and he's added significant velocity in just the last 2+ years. Being 25 and a RP is a very normal thing. Please stop trying to make this a thing. The only thing that matters is who they are as a player. Critique the player.

Yes, the control is the issue. Always has been. I mentioned it in that post. He's got plenty of stuff (his fastball can sit as high as 100, his slider is an above MLB average spin pitch with significant whiff already). The question will be control, especially, fastball zone-control. He gets a lot of whiff's with it, he also has given up almost all of his damage on his fastball variety (both the sinker/2-seam as well as the four seam) because he misses a ton in the zone right now. The good news is that he's a RP, RP's are prone to small sample sizing issues, and prior to about the last week, he had been ERA-successful (though his xFIP predicted this coming) and had really only one bad outing previous. His walk rate has ballooned because of his last week and change, prior to that, it was a manageable rate. I'm hoping this is a young kid, working through the MLB. He killed in in AA and AAA this season. He absolutely shouldn't be written off yet as there's an MLB reliever with some late-inning upside in Manny. How the control is developed in the zone will be the determining line of whether you have a guy who's a capable late-inning reliever or a AAA up/down pitcher.

On the other end of everything...Scott Effross is incredibly fun and I'm glad he's having initial success. He's yet another Cub-developmental RP success story and someone who I am 100% penciling into the BP next year right now (they need to see him at an extended run at the MLB to determine what they have). The Cubs developed him into that sidearm delivery that's catapulted him this year. He's got some really good stuff despite the lower velocity and think there's a Steve Cisek-type, righty/sidearm type of reliever there. Don't pencil him in as a guaranteed thing or anything, but he's someone who should be apart of a 2022 Cub BP from the get-go as long as health persists. I'd buy him as someone who can give you an understated, and surprisingly good 60 IP out of the pen in that Cisek style.

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Originally Posted by 1908_Cubs

Manuel Rodriguez does not throw a curveball, so I'm not entirely sure where that's coming from. He throws two variations of a fastball (a four seam and a two seam/sinker) as well as a single breaking ball, a cutter/slider. He may "call it" a curveball or something, or someone may have thought it was one during a broadcast, but it tracks as a slider/cutter exclusively with statcast and as a single breaking pitch.

Secondly, how long he's been "in the system" and "his age" is equally as irrelevant and wrong as it has been the other times you've attempted to shame a prospect or the Cubs developmental system. The player Manuel Rodriguez is today has little to do with whom he was a few years ago; he's a vastly different player. He's put on significant muscle and he's added significant velocity in just the last 2+ years. Being 25 and a RP is a very normal thing. Please stop trying to make this a thing.

Yes, the control is the issue. Always has been. I mentioned it in that post. He's got plenty of stuff (his fastball can sit as high as 100, his slider is an above MLB average spin pitch with significant whiff already). The question will be control, especially, fastball zone-control. He gets a lot of whiff's with it, he also has given up almost all of his damage on his fastball variety (both the sinker/2-seam as well as the four seam) because he misses a ton in the zone right now. The good news is that he's a RP, RP's are prone to small sample sizing issues, and prior to about the last week, he had been ERA-successful (though his xFIP predicted this coming) and had really only one bad outing previous. His walk rate has ballooned because of his last week and change, prior to that, it was a manageable rate. I'm hoping this is a young kid, working through the MLB. He killed in in AA and AAA this season. He absolutely shouldn't be written off yet as there's an MLB reliever with some late-inning upside in Manny. How the control is developed in the zone will be the determining line of whether you have a guy who's a capable late-inning reliever or a AAA up/down pitcher.

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I got it from Fangraphs when I was curious to read the take on him.

"Rodriguez will be one of the Cubs' Futures Game reps. He sits 96-98 and will touch 99 while mixing in a power curveball in the mid-80s. He's a 30-grade athlete with relief-only control and projects in middle relief."

You know way more than I do about this stuff, so I'm not going to argue with what the pitch is actually called. I'm just posting what I read.

I'm not trying to shame anybody. It's a fact. He's a 25 year old pitcher who's been in the system 5+ years and still can't throw strikes. It is what is is. They are all facts. If that is a shameful statement, then you're right.

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Originally Posted by thawv

I got it from Fangraphs when I was curious to read the take on him.

"Rodriguez will be one of the Cubs' Futures Game reps. He sits 96-98 and will touch 99 while mixing in a power curveball in the mid-80s. He's a 30-grade athlete with relief-only control and projects in middle relief."

You know way more than I do about this stuff, so I'm not going to argue with what the pitch is actually called. I'm just posting what I read.

I'm not trying to shame anybody. It's a fact. He's a 25 year old pitcher who's been in the system 5+ years and still can't throw strikes. It is what is is. They are all facts. If that is a shameful statement, then you're right.

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Manuel Rodriguez was born in Merida, Mexico. He's 5"11. He was 17 when he started pitching in Mexico. He's the first player from his hometown to make the MLB. These are also facts literally as irrelevant as his age or how many years he's pitched in the Cubs system. I bet he has a favorite color. Maybe he's got a dog. You didn't mention these facts. Why? If we're just listing facts, let's list 'em all. You didn't list those because it's an incredibly poor attempt, yet again, to shame him or the Cubs for "slow" development or whatever. Stop it. You continue to push this self-created narrative. It was wrong the last time, it's wrong this time. The next time you post it, it'll almost assuredly be wrong again. Just leave that out. You'll notice, no one else is talking about this. When it's you, and you alone pushing a narrative, it's probably not because you've stumbled upon something no one else has. It usually means you're barking up the wrong tree. It's not shameful. And it's really showing a lack of understanding the entire developmental track MiLB players go on. Manuel Rodriguez has moved just fine. That he's even made the MLB is a major developmental win; he was signed out of Mexico as a 19 year old (after an injury plagued season) not on anyone's radar (he wasn't some major IFA win), brought immediately to low-A ball at 20 (a major step up from Mexican professional ball) and has transformed his body and his game into being MLB-worthy in just 5 years (one of which was lost to covid). He has never repeated a single level, essentially skipped AA and AAA, pitching just 20 IP over A+. He's been moved aggressively this season and on a "level per year" through his early 20's coming from small-town Mexican professional ball.

I'm really not trying to be a dick here with that, but there has to come a point where you have to understand; your understanding of MiLB developmental time schedules is wrong and warped and that it needs to be re-evaluated (not stubbornly dug into further). A 20 year old, coming from small time Mexican baseball, taking 5 years (with a year of covid-in between) is not slow development. A 23 year old, coming from SEC baseball, as a 1st round pick, repeating AA and AAA multiple times, taking 5 years, without injury or losing years to pandemics, might be a good example of slow development (though there are extenuating circumstances at times in which injury or, the aforementioned pandemic, added uncontrollable developmental time and we need to be prescient of that, too). You can't just paint a swath over every player and demand they move at uber-prospect pace. It's case by case, player by player and it's nuanced.

Fangraphs may have listed it as a curve (and doing a quick look, it appears they weren't the only ones fooled by his breaker), but my guess is they thought it was a curve, but statcast doesn't track as a curve. End result; he has one breaking pitch. I just don't want anyone to think he's got a good curve on top of a good slider/cutter. It's a single good slider/cutter type right now. He may have changed it's shape a bit this year, changing it from less vertical drop (curve) to horizontal (slider), or it's just one of those things where he calls it a curveball and uses a curveball grip but despite those and because of it's shape in which he throws it, the computer's track it as a slider/cutter. Regardless; just one breaker. Whatever it is.

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Originally Posted by thawv

As of right now, his control is going to hold him back. I see him more as a middle relief guy if he makes it to the bigs. He has 5+ years in the system, and he's 25 years old, and still can't throw strikes. I guess he has a nice CB too.

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Ya if he can't throw strikes consistently a contending team won't trust him enough to be a setup guy, most likely middle relief.

Happ probably saved himself another year with the Cubs with his hitting since mid August, probably start in LF.

Right now we're probably looking at Contreras Schwindel Madrigal and Happ as starters, unless a miracle happens Heyward will be in RF again.

So that would leave SS 3B and CF/LF

There a good chance they may just go with Wisdom at 3B and maybe Hoerner at SS or CF

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Originally Posted by chibears55

Happ probably saved himself another year with the Cubs with his hitting since mid August, probably start in LF.

Right now we're probably looking at Contreras Schwindel Madrigal and Happ as starters, unless a miracle happens Heyward will be in RF again.

So that would leave SS 3B and CF/LF

There a good chance they may just go with Wisdom at 3B and maybe Hoerner at SS or CF

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That just might be good enough to not lose 100 games. Buy your season tickets early.

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Originally Posted by cuzi

That just might be good enough to not lose 100 games. Buy your season tickets early.

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Im hoping they focus more on adding ready to near ready SP this offseason and start building up a solid rotation for 2023 and beyond when the young hitters start coming up..


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Correct me if my thinking wrong but right now the cubs have 6 SP on their roster..
Hendricks Mills Davies Steele Thompson Alzolay

Hendricks has 2 yrs left
Mills sucks
Davies will be gone
Steele and Thompson seem to be better relievers then starters
Alzolay still questionable but probably wont be better then a 4 in a rotation

They dont really have any SP prospect that will be ready to go come opening day 2022 and they probably only have 2 in Marquez and J.Wicks that we might even see at some point next season.

Why i feel they should focus more on adding younger SP this offseason that are ready or near ready via trades and start building up a stock of pitchers ..

If there a top Japanese pitcher to bid on that under 30 or IFA SP they can sign, be great to see them spend on them over position players too this offseason

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Originally Posted by chibears55

Happ probably saved himself another year with the Cubs with his hitting since mid August, probably start in LF.

Right now we're probably looking at Contreras Schwindel Madrigal and Happ as starters, unless a miracle happens Heyward will be in RF again.

So that would leave SS 3B and CF/LF

There a good chance they may just go with Wisdom at 3B and maybe Hoerner at SS or CF

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OF situation will be interesting next year. With Davis probably getting the call within the next year there's no need to go out and get a CF unless it's a 1-year deal. Could see Happ/Ortega holding the fort in CF until then, or Happ sliding to LF if both are hitting well. I don't think i'd assume Ortega is a starter next year though, he can compete with Nico also maybe. I imagine they go outside and find another OF who can hit, hopefully replacing Heyward. KB would be perfect, he can bounce from OF and 3B based on need, but don't see it happening.

If Hoyer doesn't sign any FA position players for more than 3 years this offseason I wouldn't be surprised.

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Originally Posted by chibears55

Correct me if my thinking wrong but right now the cubs have 6 SP on their roster..
Hendricks Mills Davies Steele Thompson Alzolay

Hendricks has 2 yrs left
Mills sucks
Davies will be gone
Steele and Thompson seem to be better relievers then starters
Alzolay still questionable but probably wont be better then a 4 in a rotation

They dont really have any SP prospect that will be ready to go come opening day 2022 and they probably only have 2 in Marquez and J.Wicks that we might even see at some point next season.

Why i feel they should focus more on adding younger SP this offseason that are ready or near ready via trades and start building up a stock of pitchers ..

If there a top Japanese pitcher to bid on that under 30 or IFA SP they can sign, be great to see them spend on them over position players too this offseason

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Mills has a 4.07 ERA this year as a starter in 17 starts. He's done ok in the MLB. I think he's a usable #5. Amazing what some guys with poor arms can do by just locating and changing speeds well. Jamie Moyer had a decent career with Mills-like skills and tools.

Like freaking clockwork with these guys

https://twitter.com/YahooSports/stat...024420185.html

Manny Machado seems like a great teammate. What an idiot, lol.

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Originally Posted by JHBulls

https://twitter.com/YahooSports/stat...024420185.html

Manny Machado seems like a great teammate. What an idiot, lol.

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Not saying Machado is a saint or anything, but isnt this the 2nd teammate to get into it with Tatis? Why is Machado immediately the bad guy here? No one seemed to be trying to get Machado to back off.

Not sure if I'm picking up what Machado is yelling about correctly, but it sounds like he's saying something to the effect of "It's about baseball. You gotta work for it/on it. It's not about you!" And if I'm correct then Tatis, imo, does give off an aura of arrogance.

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Originally Posted by cuzi

Not saying Machado is a saint or anything, but isnt this the 2nd teammate to get into it with Tatis? Why is Machado immediately the bad guy here? No one seemed to be trying to get Machado to back off.

Not sure if I'm picking up what Machado is yelling about correctly, but it sounds like he's saying something to the effect of "It's about baseball. You gotta work for it/on it. It's not about you!" And if I'm correct then Tatis, imo, does give off an aura of arrogance.

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Machado shouted and cursed at Tatis, telling him “it’s not about you” and “you go play baseball” after Tatis struck out looking in the fifth. Tatis reacted angrily to the call by plate umpire Phil Cuzzi, and manager Jayce Tingler was ejected when he came out of the dugout to argue.
The 29-year-old Machado and 22-year-old Tatis were separated by teammates during the incident, which came at the end of the top of the fifth. They eventually made their way to their positions — Machado at third, Tatis at short.


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