If he changes hands and opens his eyes he could still be greatQuote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
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If he changes hands and opens his eyes he could still be greatQuote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
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Via Windhorst:
Ben Simmons is doubtful to play for Australia in Tokyo Olympics, sources said. Will spend offseason working on skill development. Aussies scheduled to begin training this week in L.A.
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https://twitter.com/blackdragonroll/...269410823?s=21
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Man, if you're a 25yr old pro basketball player you can't be talking about switching the hand you shoot with. That's just nonsense. He'd be learning to shoot all over again and that's not a recipe for success either. I think he kinda is what he is at this point as a shooter.Quote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
CJ could probably easily be an All-Star in the East.Quote:
Originally Posted by mngopher35
Idk if just swapping in CJ for Ben is good enough though. 76ers needs another wing with a similar skill set but maybe a smidge better defender.
It’s Embiid.Quote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
Face it, Simmons is taking all the flak, and well deserved, but the entire team, with the slight exception of Curry, cratered under pressure. When the Nets played their final matchup of the season against the 6ers, with Harden and a total of nine guys on the back end of an unexpected back-to-back and nearly came back to win a game the 6ers were pumped for, their fragility as a team was obvious and I said they were going to choke.
Not taking anything away from the Hawks, but the 6ers lost this series.
The full one suggestion coming up is CJ/RoCo for Ben/Hill.Quote:
Originally Posted by NBA all the way
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That could work. I think a Curry/CJ back court gets killed defensively, so maybe find a 2 or hope Thyb or Maxey make that next step and have Curry off the bench as that super sub 6th man, a role he's proved to thrive in.Quote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
That wouldn't be too bad of a shake up chemistry wise either. Tobi and RoCo easily fit today's prototypical forwards so whoever was 3 or 4 is kinda irrelevant.
Definitely.Quote:
Originally Posted by NBA all the way
Something I randomly thought of. So many young guys, especially in big hype situations, get offers upon offers from former players to help with their game. Even if they don’t take it the offer is there. I can’t recall anyone offering help Simmons. All anyone is saying is he need to be traded. Not saying it does anything, but it is strange he doesn’t have anyone in his corner.
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Transition teams don't win championships.Quote:
Originally Posted by koldjerky
At some point if you can't execute in the half court or at the free throw line, you should be on the bench. Simmons even on another team with athletic shooters who can finish on the break, cut, and end find the open points for catch and shoot....will still need to execute in the half court.
With that in mind nobody can trade for Simmons expecting him to be one of their two best players. He's a more athletic Draymond. Certainly critical to a teams success but also clearly shouldn't be making the max, nor one of the two best players
My point is he isn't some clear/perennial all star type that would have been expected a year or two back if a move was made, no all star games signals that at the very least. Most years he isn't even top 10 in voting for West backcourt guys usually overall. I am not saying he isn't talented enough to get in on the right season just that this type of player at age 30 is a drop off. You are getting the prime/peak version basically though for a short window at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
He isn't bad by any means but the value on Simmons has dropped significantly if that is where it lands. We are talking a 25 year old 3 time all star and an All NBA team and 2nd in DPOY this year. His trade value doesn't reflect that at all anymore.
As I was noting my point is that he isn't some clear selection (shown by never even making it). Simmons made an All NBA team and was 2nd in DPOY voting this year while being 5 years younger. I think it actually makes sense for both as I was noting but this would be a pretty decent drop value wise from how he was seen a year or two ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by NBA all the way
1 - The concepts of windows need to be thrown out the door. If you got a team that a move can get you over the hump then make it.Quote:
Originally Posted by mngopher35
2 - CJ is regularly on the list of All-Star snubs. Using a popularity contest as a measuring stick of who’s good is a bad one.
3 - Value doesn’t come from accomplishments alone. Like the Wolves will trade a guard and they aren’t gonna get full value because teams know they have to ditch one.
4 - Again on value. Saying Ben’s value is down, then listing that stuff as to why he should be worth more sets up any trade to be a lose.
5 - Last one on value. That trade is going to be one where the players being acquired are more valuable to the teams getting the player than the teams giving up the player.
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Another somewhat interesting thing I heard a lot of experts and insiders say today is just how difficult a Simmons trade is.
One, we aren’t a rebuilding team so deals with young guys and picks doesn’t work. We need win now players coming back.
Two, unless you go to Portland or Chicago for CJ or LaVine; you got to involve a third team which complicates salary and picks with all the protections.
Three, if you do this you almost HAVE to work with Klutch sports to get him somewhere he wants to go. Given Rich Paul’s expanding power in the league you want to get that.
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There’s 3 things that are certain in life. Death, taxes and Philly getting bumped in the 2nd round.
1. Absolutely not and a move to put you over the hump is relevant to the competition. I would agree this moves becomes more arguable due to the fit and chances of a title but you don't just ignore the age of your star, age of assets being moved etc. when discussing these things. Simmons for Lowry might put them over the top but I think you factor in the window there for example. Durant/Harden/Kyrie are also currently on the same team in the east.Quote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
2. The point as I noted was just to show his impact isn't actually at the level of top 20ish player in the league. He isn't making All NBA teams either All Star is just a lesser way of generalizing. As I have been trying to say my main point isn't that he could never squeek into a game given this, it's just noting his talent isn't that elite elite level.
3. I never said it did, part of the reason Simmons value has dropped off so much is the current perception and handling by Philly. However, often times the accomplishments do give an idea of where most/many saw a player at a specific time period. This is relevant when talking about his value dropping from one time to another like I have been.
4. I am noting Simmons value as seen by others in multiple ways. The point on his value now is it doesn't match those accolades or types of ideas being thrown out a year or two back. If it looks like a loss when you consider this, that's what I am getting at haha.
5. Yes and this is the aspect where Philly at least can argue this one. Mccollum is a better fit for the team and you can argue it getting better at a time they are reasonably close to a legitimate run/contending. That isn't going to change the value Simmons had a year or two ago perception wise compared to what it is now.
Seems like you are arguing against a point I mostly am not making and even acknowledged. This trade might be one that works for both. The value of Simmons has clearly dropped off a good amount if this is what is being settled for though.
Betting odds for Simmons next team:
Portland +250
Washington +300
San Antonio +450
Utah +550
Oklahoma City +550
Golden State +600
Los Angeles Lakers +625
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PreciselyQuote:
Originally Posted by beasted86
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https://twitter.com/MikeAScotto/stat...210034690?s=20Quote:
NBA executive on Ben Simmons: “His 3-point shooting is a few years away if he ever gets it. You can’t rush things with him, he’s a mental midget right now with his shooting confidence.” More on his trade value and if the 76ers should trade him
@hoopshype
.
On #1, not necessarily. You can make it work if the ultimate goal is moving several pieces, those young guys and picks will be needed to facilitate the trade.Quote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
Ultimately it'll have to be a multi team trade regardless, imo. It's very rare for a star to be moved in just a 2 team trade. It always gets expanded to make every team ends up with what they want.
Rockets coulda did Harden to Nets straight up but they knew they didn't want to build around Allen, LeVert, and Prince.
Worrying about a window is for teams that won't win. What are we supposed to do? Waste Embiid's prime waiting for the Nets to break up? Who's next after that, wait for the Hawks?Quote:
Originally Posted by mngopher35
That's not what that means. Only about 5-6 guards make the All-Star teams.Quote:
Originally Posted by mngopher35
2020 - 21: Curry, Luka, Booker, Conley, Lillard, Mitchell, CP3
2019 - 20: Harden, Luka, CP3, Westbrook, Lillard, Mitchell, Booker
2018 - 19: Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Lillard, Klay
2017 - 18: Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Klay, Butler
2016 - 17: Curry, Westbrook, Bryant, Chris Paul, Harden, Klay
Look up how they were doing at that time and tell me who you keep off that team to push CJ onto it. Meanwhile in the east; Oladipo, DeRozan, Russell, LaVine have all made it. CJ would certainly make it over them the years they did.
The issue I have here too is with your earlier point of trading Beasley++ for Simmons and not including Russell. At least with CJ he's a starting level basket getter in the NBA. So CJ isn't a high enough talent but a bench guard who's been suspended for felony threats of violence.
Well here's the problem I have with this line of conversation and insinuation though. You are saying CJ isn't good because of a lack of that, then that alone should make Simmons much more valuable, regardless, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by mngopher35
Actually that's not the conversation, the conversation would be better off with was he overrated, or is this a short term issue and he should be valued on that other stuff.Quote:
Originally Posted by mngopher35
Well, maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mngopher35
Not arguing, just conversation.Quote:
Originally Posted by mngopher35
I’m trying to picture Ben on Portland. What does he do? Grab and go on the boards sure. He is great at that. What else does he do? Does he play center? Is he the roller in the half court with Lillard? He can pass and finish. Do they use him kind of like the Hawks do Cappella but he handles the ball on the break too? I’m not sure. Help me see this.
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Well I was gonna make that point when I got home. If there was a team that wants to build around Simmons and only had assets, you need to get the players and picks rerouted to a 3rd team to bring back a win now player from a team ready to rebuild.Quote:
Originally Posted by NBA all the way
I just don't know who that is. Maybe OKC falls lower than anticipated in the draft, and you send Ben to them.
Maybe a modification on an earlier option:
OKC In - Simmons, Hill, 2021 Sixers 1st
Philly In - Lu Dort, Kyle Lowry, Pascal Siakam
Toronto In - Matisse Thybulle, 2021 Houston first via OKC (5), 2022 Sixers swap option, 2023 Sixers 1st, 2024 Sixers Swap, 2022 Phoenix 1st via OKC
High pick and roll with Lillard the way Golden State uses Dray with Curry. If they trap Lillard, Simmons has a 4 on 3 option for passing or going to the rack.Quote:
Originally Posted by ewing
1. No, it is for teams that have superstars to build around and want to do it correctly. I never said waste anyone prime or don't make moves to improve and I literally have noted this could be one that works. The idea you shouldn't consider age/window etc. is pretty ridiculous from a GM standpoint though as I was hoping my example would get at. The point is those types of things should be considered (even if it doesn't mean don't make a move for Mccollum it's a factor to consider).Quote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
2. Where do you rank CJ? I also noted he normally doesn't rank top 10 in voting for backcourt so going 6/7 deep doesn't mean he is necessarily next in line. He may have made it in the East over some so I get that but I have clarified what I meant plenty now you seem to be ignoring the main point and context for some reason.
Not including Russell has multiple factors. We traded for him to appease Towns for example. Beasley++ is what we generally have available and the extra + is to note it is far off with just him anyways lol. If you are mixing in my take from Wolves standpoint into the general discussion you seem to be arguing things I am not as I was getting at. I never even remotely claimed anything around Beasley to Mccollum. Again these seem unrelated to points I actually am making.
3. Not regardless, just at one point he was considered that. You can get into the specific context too if you think it is off base I was using it all to generalize where they are viewed. Sometimes young guys get overrated then we see them in different situations and their value drops. Playoff Simmons and his skillset has been exposed a bit more and that is leading to this drop in his perceived value. If you don't think Simmons was ever considered one of the best up and coming talents or if you think CJ is much better than I have claimed go ahead and make the argument. I am generalizing but I don't think I am lying about how these guys were/are rated either. We can get specific if you want.
4. Well my point was the value now is low on a return for him and it being a drop off (compared to a year or two ago when these discussions happened). I am saying that in reference to the previous thoughts on his value and what he could get for trade as I have been noting. You can try to change it to is it low or high now after the series based on his current talents but many will differ on that. That is moreso deciding if pulling the trigger now is still worth it or not as opposed to the drop off in return value.
5/end. Exactly, time will tell if it actually works out either way. The value dropping off from what it was previously talked about to Mccollum now has been my reason for the comment that lead us here though. It just seems the conversation isn't based on the points I'm trying to make but you kinda wanting to twist the conversation or other points I have made instead.
I actually think that 3 teamer could work! But idk what Raps fans would say. I still think the lottery might gift the Raptors #1 overall lolQuote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
That works. It gets him down hill which is when he is good. He doesn’t appear to work off the ball. He will need to change that. The trick is to get him the ball in spots where he is a threat and keep it away from him when he isn’t bc he can become a rhythm killer when he isn’t a threat at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
I'm not sure what they would say. But there's going to be a team that says the star they are counting on is really more of a #2/3 option and they know they should rebuild. I think any of those type of teams though the fans would be more resistant to it. Bulls could decide that with LaVine, maybe Detroit wants a smaller rebuild package for Grant, Maybe Orlando wants it for Bamba/Ross/Harris, maybe washington decides to move on from Beal and you send Simmons elsewhere for assets and add your own for him.Quote:
Originally Posted by NBA all the way
Wait, what would the deal for Gary Harris, Ross, and Bamba look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
I'm not in love with it without context but I do believe a 3 for 1 like that is what the 76ers should be seeking.
Idk if I already said it but Josh Smith roasted Doc LOL
I'm thinking similar with Ben to OKC or maybe Houston and lesser picks going to Orlando with those three coming back. Maybe Sixers can flip Ross and Bamba; or Thybulle and picks for a wing.Quote:
Originally Posted by NBA all the way
Why in Gods name would we trade Siakim for Thybulle and picks? Go kick your GM in the nuts for passing on Lowry and a title in the first place to protect Thybulle.Quote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
I want Siakim traded as much as the next guy but not for crap, he can net us an all star type talent in a package.
Unless we're getting the first or 2nd overall pick too so we can draft Mobley, hell no.
He def still has value, but like you said you guys are selling low, but then again if he performed very well then you all wouldn’t be trading him at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
But he still has value. He would actually be a perfect fit on the Raptors. He’s kind of exactly what we need, now that it’s pretty much a forgone conclusion that Lowry is gone. We need a pass first floor general with size who can defend and would compliment our very undersized shooting guard in FVV. He also is the perfect age with our core: FVV/Siakam are 27 and OG is 23. All three guys benefit with playing with pace and getting up and down the court. And our defence with Simmons/OG/Siakam would be pretty dam good.
this is just an example of a team he would fit really well on. But also an example of how he still has value because I don’t think we have the pieces to attain him with out gutting the team.
I'm actually kinda curious too, do you think he can play C? Can he handle the banging all game and fight for rebounds with the C's across the league generally?Quote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
Good question. The other area I think he can influence the game is as a rim runner/lob threat. Does Simmons sprint the floor when he doesn’t have the ball. He’s great at igniting transition with the dribble but hurts his team initiating offense outside of transition. I think he can help a team just by sprinting the floor. If he plays 5 he is going to be faster then other 5 men and be a lob threat. If teams regularly have pinch in or tag him in transition bc he is beating his guy down floor it will open up things for the wings. This gets back to his off ball game. If he not going to be a PG he needs to influence the game off ball. So on Portland he can grab and go to start the break, defend the 5, be a roll man with Lillard, and a rim runner off ball in transition.Quote:
Originally Posted by mngopher35
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No. He's a PF. I think they would need to go after a 5 like Brook Lopez.Quote:
Originally Posted by mngopher35
Ya I saw your other post and was playing off it cause it intrigued me. I agree with a lot of what you are saying offensively and how he can use his natural abilities as an advantage in that way. He has the ability to finish like capela as you said while also have a bit more playmaking (he can hit open shooters/dribble attack to rim if dame has to dump off due to doubles from screen). Basically everything for him is set up naturally by hustle/taking advantage or putting him in east positions to succeed off dame.Quote:
Originally Posted by ewing
He seems aware and good enough defensively to me to figure out the anchor aspect a bit more. If he can grind at C at fight for rebounds etc. every game then that’s really intriguing from Portland’s view.
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My feel was he might not be given what I have seen. It’s an interesting idea if he were able to pull off playing the 5 though.Quote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
I think as you note the need to compliment with spacing still from c position like a lopez. You can still do a lot of what Ewing was getting at still and I added to in having ben be a finisher who can play make a bit in certain areas (attacking in transition then if not in half court if teams double dame leaving him open off action).
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this makes me roll my eyes. Why can’t he play 5? I definitely think he is best suited as a 5. It give him the speed mismatch on O, makes him the roller in spread PNR with play making wings to kick to, puts him in the middle of PnR defense, and allows him to be in a great position to grab and go in boards to ignite fast breaks. If Ben wants to be special he has to at least play some 5 and probably should be FT imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by warfelg
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It seems like there is a long list of dos and donts needed from this max players teammates to make him fit. I guess you need a 3 point shooting 5 that stays out of the post area now. If I’m a GM I want no part of this. He should be able to play either and I shouldn’t need to get a stretch 5 to accommodate him. I think he should be a 5Quote:
Originally Posted by mngopher35
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