NBA Playoffs Series Thread (1) Sixers vs (5) Hawks Atlanta wins 4-3

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Originally Posted by warfelg

1 - The concepts of windows need to be thrown out the door. If you got a team that a move can get you over the hump then make it.

2 - CJ is regularly on the list of All-Star snubs. Using a popularity contest as a measuring stick of who’s good is a bad one.

3 - Value doesn’t come from accomplishments alone. Like the Wolves will trade a guard and they aren’t gonna get full value because teams know they have to ditch one.

4 - Again on value. Saying Ben’s value is down, then listing that stuff as to why he should be worth more sets up any trade to be a lose.

5 - Last one on value. That trade is going to be one where the players being acquired are more valuable to the teams getting the player than the teams giving up the player.


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1. Absolutely not and a move to put you over the hump is relevant to the competition. I would agree this moves becomes more arguable due to the fit and chances of a title but you don't just ignore the age of your star, age of assets being moved etc. when discussing these things. Simmons for Lowry might put them over the top but I think you factor in the window there for example. Durant/Harden/Kyrie are also currently on the same team in the east.

2. The point as I noted was just to show his impact isn't actually at the level of top 20ish player in the league. He isn't making All NBA teams either All Star is just a lesser way of generalizing. As I have been trying to say my main point isn't that he could never squeek into a game given this, it's just noting his talent isn't that elite elite level.

3. I never said it did, part of the reason Simmons value has dropped off so much is the current perception and handling by Philly. However, often times the accomplishments do give an idea of where most/many saw a player at a specific time period. This is relevant when talking about his value dropping from one time to another like I have been.

4. I am noting Simmons value as seen by others in multiple ways. The point on his value now is it doesn't match those accolades or types of ideas being thrown out a year or two back. If it looks like a loss when you consider this, that's what I am getting at haha.

5. Yes and this is the aspect where Philly at least can argue this one. Mccollum is a better fit for the team and you can argue it getting better at a time they are reasonably close to a legitimate run/contending. That isn't going to change the value Simmons had a year or two ago perception wise compared to what it is now.


Seems like you are arguing against a point I mostly am not making and even acknowledged. This trade might be one that works for both. The value of Simmons has clearly dropped off a good amount if this is what is being settled for though.

Betting odds for Simmons next team:
Portland +250
Washington +300
San Antonio +450
Utah +550
Oklahoma City +550
Golden State +600
Los Angeles Lakers +625


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Originally Posted by beasted86

Transition teams don't win championships.

At some point if you can't execute in the half court or at the free throw line, you should be on the bench. Simmons even on another team with athletic shooters who can finish on the break, cut, and end find the open points for catch and shoot....will still need to execute in the half court.

With that in mind nobody can trade for Simmons expecting him to be one of their two best players. He's a more athletic Draymond. Certainly critical to a teams success but also clearly shouldn't be making the max, nor one of the two best players

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Precisely


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NBA executive on Ben Simmons: “His 3-point shooting is a few years away if he ever gets it. You can’t rush things with him, he’s a mental midget right now with his shooting confidence.” More on his trade value and if the 76ers should trade him
@hoopshype
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https://twitter.com/MikeAScotto/stat...210034690?s=20

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Originally Posted by warfelg

Another somewhat interesting thing I heard a lot of experts and insiders say today is just how difficult a Simmons trade is.

One, we aren’t a rebuilding team so deals with young guys and picks doesn’t work. We need win now players coming back.

Two, unless you go to Portland or Chicago for CJ or LaVine; you got to involve a third team which complicates salary and picks with all the protections.

Three, if you do this you almost HAVE to work with Klutch sports to get him somewhere he wants to go. Given Rich Paul’s expanding power in the league you want to get that.


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On #1, not necessarily. You can make it work if the ultimate goal is moving several pieces, those young guys and picks will be needed to facilitate the trade.

Ultimately it'll have to be a multi team trade regardless, imo. It's very rare for a star to be moved in just a 2 team trade. It always gets expanded to make every team ends up with what they want.

Rockets coulda did Harden to Nets straight up but they knew they didn't want to build around Allen, LeVert, and Prince.

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Originally Posted by mngopher35

1. Absolutely not and a move to put you over the hump is relevant to the competition. I would agree this moves becomes more arguable due to the fit and chances of a title but you don't just ignore the age of your star, age of assets being moved etc. when discussing these things. Simmons for Lowry might put them over the top but I think you factor in the window there for example. Durant/Harden/Kyrie are also currently on the same team in the east.

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Worrying about a window is for teams that won't win. What are we supposed to do? Waste Embiid's prime waiting for the Nets to break up? Who's next after that, wait for the Hawks?

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Originally Posted by mngopher35

2. The point as I noted was just to show his impact isn't actually at the level of top 20ish player in the league. He isn't making All NBA teams either All Star is just a lesser way of generalizing. As I have been trying to say my main point isn't that he could never squeek into a game given this, it's just noting his talent isn't that elite elite level.

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That's not what that means. Only about 5-6 guards make the All-Star teams.
2020 - 21: Curry, Luka, Booker, Conley, Lillard, Mitchell, CP3
2019 - 20: Harden, Luka, CP3, Westbrook, Lillard, Mitchell, Booker
2018 - 19: Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Lillard, Klay
2017 - 18: Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Klay, Butler
2016 - 17: Curry, Westbrook, Bryant, Chris Paul, Harden, Klay

Look up how they were doing at that time and tell me who you keep off that team to push CJ onto it. Meanwhile in the east; Oladipo, DeRozan, Russell, LaVine have all made it. CJ would certainly make it over them the years they did.

The issue I have here too is with your earlier point of trading Beasley++ for Simmons and not including Russell. At least with CJ he's a starting level basket getter in the NBA. So CJ isn't a high enough talent but a bench guard who's been suspended for felony threats of violence.

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Originally Posted by mngopher35

3. I never said it did, part of the reason Simmons value has dropped off so much is the current perception and handling by Philly. However, often times the accomplishments do give an idea of where most/many saw a player at a specific time period. This is relevant when talking about his value dropping from one time to another like I have been.

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Well here's the problem I have with this line of conversation and insinuation though. You are saying CJ isn't good because of a lack of that, then that alone should make Simmons much more valuable, regardless, right?

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Originally Posted by mngopher35

4. I am noting Simmons value as seen by others in multiple ways. The point on his value now is it doesn't match those accolades or types of ideas being thrown out a year or two back. If it looks like a loss when you consider this, that's what I am getting at haha.

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Actually that's not the conversation, the conversation would be better off with was he overrated, or is this a short term issue and he should be valued on that other stuff.

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Originally Posted by mngopher35

5. Yes and this is the aspect where Philly at least can argue this one. Mccollum is a better fit for the team and you can argue it getting better at a time they are reasonably close to a legitimate run/contending. That isn't going to change the value Simmons had a year or two ago perception wise compared to what it is now.

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Well, maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that.

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Originally Posted by mngopher35

Seems like you are arguing against a point I mostly am not making and even acknowledged. This trade might be one that works for both. The value of Simmons has clearly dropped off a good amount if this is what is being settled for though.

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Not arguing, just conversation.

I’m trying to picture Ben on Portland. What does he do? Grab and go on the boards sure. He is great at that. What else does he do? Does he play center? Is he the roller in the half court with Lillard? He can pass and finish. Do they use him kind of like the Hawks do Cappella but he handles the ball on the break too? I’m not sure. Help me see this.


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Originally Posted by NBA all the way

On #1, not necessarily. You can make it work if the ultimate goal is moving several pieces, those young guys and picks will be needed to facilitate the trade.

Ultimately it'll have to be a multi team trade regardless, imo. It's very rare for a star to be moved in just a 2 team trade. It always gets expanded to make every team ends up with what they want.

Rockets coulda did Harden to Nets straight up but they knew they didn't want to build around Allen, LeVert, and Prince.

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Well I was gonna make that point when I got home. If there was a team that wants to build around Simmons and only had assets, you need to get the players and picks rerouted to a 3rd team to bring back a win now player from a team ready to rebuild.

I just don't know who that is. Maybe OKC falls lower than anticipated in the draft, and you send Ben to them.

Maybe a modification on an earlier option:
OKC In - Simmons, Hill, 2021 Sixers 1st
Philly In - Lu Dort, Kyle Lowry, Pascal Siakam
Toronto In - Matisse Thybulle, 2021 Houston first via OKC (5), 2022 Sixers swap option, 2023 Sixers 1st, 2024 Sixers Swap, 2022 Phoenix 1st via OKC

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Originally Posted by ewing

I’m trying to picture Ben on Portland. What does he do? Grab and go on the boards sure. He is great at that. What else does he do? Does he play center? Is he the roller in the half court with Lillard? He can pass and finish. Do they use him kind of like the Hawks do Cappella but he handles the ball on the break too? I’m not sure. Help me see this.


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High pick and roll with Lillard the way Golden State uses Dray with Curry. If they trap Lillard, Simmons has a 4 on 3 option for passing or going to the rack.

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Originally Posted by warfelg

Worrying about a window is for teams that won't win. What are we supposed to do? Waste Embiid's prime waiting for the Nets to break up? Who's next after that, wait for the Hawks?



That's not what that means. Only about 5-6 guards make the All-Star teams.
2020 - 21: Curry, Luka, Booker, Conley, Lillard, Mitchell, CP3
2019 - 20: Harden, Luka, CP3, Westbrook, Lillard, Mitchell, Booker
2018 - 19: Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Lillard, Klay
2017 - 18: Curry, Harden, Westbrook, Klay, Butler
2016 - 17: Curry, Westbrook, Bryant, Chris Paul, Harden, Klay

Look up how they were doing at that time and tell me who you keep off that team to push CJ onto it. Meanwhile in the east; Oladipo, DeRozan, Russell, LaVine have all made it. CJ would certainly make it over them the years they did.

The issue I have here too is with your earlier point of trading Beasley++ for Simmons and not including Russell. At least with CJ he's a starting level basket getter in the NBA. So CJ isn't a high enough talent but a bench guard who's been suspended for felony threats of violence.



Well here's the problem I have with this line of conversation and insinuation though. You are saying CJ isn't good because of a lack of that, then that alone should make Simmons much more valuable, regardless, right?



Actually that's not the conversation, the conversation would be better off with was he overrated, or is this a short term issue and he should be valued on that other stuff.



Well, maybe, maybe not. Only time will tell on that.



Not arguing, just conversation.

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1. No, it is for teams that have superstars to build around and want to do it correctly. I never said waste anyone prime or don't make moves to improve and I literally have noted this could be one that works. The idea you shouldn't consider age/window etc. is pretty ridiculous from a GM standpoint though as I was hoping my example would get at. The point is those types of things should be considered (even if it doesn't mean don't make a move for Mccollum it's a factor to consider).

2. Where do you rank CJ? I also noted he normally doesn't rank top 10 in voting for backcourt so going 6/7 deep doesn't mean he is necessarily next in line. He may have made it in the East over some so I get that but I have clarified what I meant plenty now you seem to be ignoring the main point and context for some reason.

Not including Russell has multiple factors. We traded for him to appease Towns for example. Beasley++ is what we generally have available and the extra + is to note it is far off with just him anyways lol. If you are mixing in my take from Wolves standpoint into the general discussion you seem to be arguing things I am not as I was getting at. I never even remotely claimed anything around Beasley to Mccollum. Again these seem unrelated to points I actually am making.

3. Not regardless, just at one point he was considered that. You can get into the specific context too if you think it is off base I was using it all to generalize where they are viewed. Sometimes young guys get overrated then we see them in different situations and their value drops. Playoff Simmons and his skillset has been exposed a bit more and that is leading to this drop in his perceived value. If you don't think Simmons was ever considered one of the best up and coming talents or if you think CJ is much better than I have claimed go ahead and make the argument. I am generalizing but I don't think I am lying about how these guys were/are rated either. We can get specific if you want.

4. Well my point was the value now is low on a return for him and it being a drop off (compared to a year or two ago when these discussions happened). I am saying that in reference to the previous thoughts on his value and what he could get for trade as I have been noting. You can try to change it to is it low or high now after the series based on his current talents but many will differ on that. That is moreso deciding if pulling the trigger now is still worth it or not as opposed to the drop off in return value.

5/end. Exactly, time will tell if it actually works out either way. The value dropping off from what it was previously talked about to Mccollum now has been my reason for the comment that lead us here though. It just seems the conversation isn't based on the points I'm trying to make but you kinda wanting to twist the conversation or other points I have made instead.

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Originally Posted by warfelg

Well I was gonna make that point when I got home. If there was a team that wants to build around Simmons and only had assets, you need to get the players and picks rerouted to a 3rd team to bring back a win now player from a team ready to rebuild.

I just don't know who that is. Maybe OKC falls lower than anticipated in the draft, and you send Ben to them.

Maybe a modification on an earlier option:
OKC In - Simmons, Hill, 2021 Sixers 1st
Philly In - Lu Dort, Kyle Lowry, Pascal Siakam
Toronto In - Matisse Thybulle, 2021 Houston first via OKC (5), 2022 Sixers swap option, 2023 Sixers 1st, 2024 Sixers Swap, 2022 Phoenix 1st via OKC

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I actually think that 3 teamer could work! But idk what Raps fans would say. I still think the lottery might gift the Raptors #1 overall lol

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Originally Posted by warfelg

High pick and roll with Lillard the way Golden State uses Dray with Curry. If they trap Lillard, Simmons has a 4 on 3 option for passing or going to the rack.

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That works. It gets him down hill which is when he is good. He doesn’t appear to work off the ball. He will need to change that. The trick is to get him the ball in spots where he is a threat and keep it away from him when he isn’t bc he can become a rhythm killer when he isn’t a threat at all.

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Originally Posted by NBA all the way

I actually think that 3 teamer could work! But idk what Raps fans would say. I still think the lottery might gift the Raptors #1 overall lol

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I'm not sure what they would say. But there's going to be a team that says the star they are counting on is really more of a #2/3 option and they know they should rebuild. I think any of those type of teams though the fans would be more resistant to it. Bulls could decide that with LaVine, maybe Detroit wants a smaller rebuild package for Grant, Maybe Orlando wants it for Bamba/Ross/Harris, maybe washington decides to move on from Beal and you send Simmons elsewhere for assets and add your own for him.

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Originally Posted by warfelg

I'm not sure what they would say. But there's going to be a team that says the star they are counting on is really more of a #2/3 option and they know they should rebuild. I think any of those type of teams though the fans would be more resistant to it. Bulls could decide that with LaVine, maybe Detroit wants a smaller rebuild package for Grant, Maybe Orlando wants it for Bamba/Ross/Harris, maybe washington decides to move on from Beal and you send Simmons elsewhere for assets and add your own for him.

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Wait, what would the deal for Gary Harris, Ross, and Bamba look like?

I'm not in love with it without context but I do believe a 3 for 1 like that is what the 76ers should be seeking.

Idk if I already said it but Josh Smith roasted Doc LOL