Thoughts after the mass shooting

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

If you are willing to sacrifice someone's second amendment right, why wouldn't you be willing to sacrifice someone's fifth amendment right?

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I never pushed to sacrifice someone's second amendment and how does the fifth amendment right affect my and my neighbor's desires to not have military people patrolling our streets?

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Originally Posted by valade16

We do have a mental health issue, but as I’ve said dozens of times on here, studies show suicide rates increase with guns and they decrease with less guns, so it’s not like everyone who commits suicide with a gun would switch to pills; with less guns there’d be less suicides.

But beyond that, even taking out suicides, our gun crime rate is far and away higher than every other industrialized nation, in some cases by 10 or 20 times. That more guns equals more gun violence is not in dispute in any scientific sense, it’s been beyond proven at this point.

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Plano, TX would disagree that more guns equate to more gun murders.

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

Estimates vary but its anywhere between 500,000 to 3 million defensive uses of guns yearly. Regardless of the number, these are way more than the uses of gun related crimes yearly and certainly more than gun murders yearly. In fact, most gun violence, roughly 65% are due to suicides. I'd argue, the US has more of a mental health issue than a gun problem issue.

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That estimate comes from a study in the previous century that just spends its whole premise arguing all sorts of estimates that are far lower than those numbers.

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Originally Posted by WES445

I never pushed to sacrifice someone's second amendment and how does the fifth amendment right affect my and my neighbor's desires to not have military people patrolling our streets?

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Because the 5th amendment is what guarantees you rights involving criminal activity such as the right to a fair trial and such. For instance, stop and frisk was a violation of someone's fifth amendment right.

Martial law, or the military occupying inner cities wouId assume guilt and therefore by a violation of people's fifth amendment.

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Originally Posted by dbroncos78087

That estimate comes from a study in the previous century that just spends its whole premise arguing all sorts of estimates that are far lower than those numbers.

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Are you suggesting the number of uses of guns for defensive purposes is less than the number of guns used for violent crime?

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

Plano, TX would disagree that more guns equate to more gun murders.

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Good for Plano, TX. Here's a meta study, which found:

https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/hicrc/f...uns-and-death/

Where there are more guns there is more homicide

Across high-income nations, more guns = more homicide

Across states, more guns = more homicide

More guns = more homicides of police


This has been confirmed by multiple meta studies. We cannot have a discussion about guns if you don't believe reality.

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

Because the 5th amendment is what guarantees you rights involving criminal activity such as the right to a fair trial and such. For instance, stop and frisk was a violation of someone's fifth amendment right.

Martial law, or the military occupying inner cities wouId assume guilt and therefore by a violation of people's fifth amendment.

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All that to said you agree with me? It was you who started this by wanting armed troops in the inner cities.

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

Because the 5th amendment is what guarantees you rights involving criminal activity such as the right to a fair trial and such. For instance, stop and frisk was a violation of someone's fifth amendment right.

Martial law, or the military occupying inner cities wouId assume guilt and therefore by a violation of people's fifth amendment.

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And yet you were fine with the violation of the 5th Amendment when it came to stop and frisk because it was effective. Why not keep that same energy with the 2nd Amendment?

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

Are you suggesting the number of uses of guns for defensive purposes is less than the number of guns used for violent crime?

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Yes, I'm suggesting it is far lower than that number. I think it's lower than 500,000; so needless to say it is FAR lower than 3,000,000.

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Originally Posted by WES445

All that to said you agree with me? It was you who started this by wanting armed troops in the inner cities.

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No. I want ex military, you know the people who are discharged after serving our country proudly yet typically lack the necessary skills for most employment, to serve as protection officers in schools. To protect our youth the way politicians receive protection.

Val stated more guns lead to more death. I said if the military patrolled the inner city, there would be less murders. I don't want martial law. While it would lessen gun murders, its an infringement of our rights. It's like hate speech. Hate speech is protected by the first amendment. While i wish hate speech, like gun murders, would cease to exist, its the price we pay for our freedoms. Personally, i believe law enforcement (cops) should be trained as often and diligently as the military trains.

I remember that quite well. Even when the fact came out that minorities were being singled out more.

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

I think if the military or ex military patrolled the streets of the inner city, there would be a lot less gun deaths. Do you agree?

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Oh, here you said military or ex-military. You sound quite clear on your stance to even seek a "Amen"

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Originally Posted by dbroncos78087

Yes, I'm suggesting it is far lower than that number. I think it's lower than 500,000; so needless to say it is FAR lower than 3,000,000.

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Even on the very low end, studies suggest between 50-80, 000 defensive uses of guns yearly. Those numbers are still more than the number of gun deaths, including suicides.

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Originally Posted by WES445

Oh, here you said military or ex-military. You sound quite clear on your stance to even seek a "Amen"

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I'm saying the military are properly and adequately trained to deal with violent situations which typically occur in inner cities. While i dont want a military force in our inner cities, i believe police should train just as often.

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

I'm saying the military are properly and adequately trained to deal with violent situations which typically occur in inner cities. While i dont want a military force in our inner cities, i believe police should train just as often.

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I don't know how I miss that in your post. Just admit you are cleaning up your stance to something more palatable