Printable View
You can’t say Trump wouldn’t have sent more troops in but also that the Taliban knew if they attacked he’d be hot-headed and would have ordered an attack to wipe them out. That’s exactly what that would entail. We did not have enough troops in Afghanistan for any such retaliation.Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanSpray
The Taliban factually wanted to deal with Trump because Trump promised them we’d leave sooner than Biden did. They just wanted us gone so they could take over.
There were enough troops there. Additional being sent? No, I don't believe so. The negotiations were to withdraw the amount of existing troops there. Again, how Biden chose to handle the situation was different than the terms outlined by Trump. Biden most definitely handled it poorly and botched the situation. Withdrawal, 100% fine. Breaking the terms and how it unfolded, not fine. It wasn't a one-day event, by the way. The Taliban had been gaining ground for many weeks. We didn't hear much about the situation until the Taliban started marching to Kabul but this was info Biden had before the American public was aware of it. All I know is there wasn't any American deaths under Trump's presidency when the terms were originally made. Those deaths happened as a result of the terms changing. Once Biden renegged on it, the Taliban saw no reason to abide by the original terms.Quote:
Originally Posted by valade16
I agree Biden blundered in changing the terms and delaying the exit. But once the US left Afghanistan was theirs. They were always going to take it back.It’s also worth pointing out Trump’s timeline was earlier, so if we weren’t fully prepared for withdrawal even with the delay, less time was not going to make us more prepared.Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanSpray
What mental gymnastics? Are you that dumb? You can give someone credit for withdrawing (you know something 3 previous presidents didn't actually do) and disagree with the way in which it they withdrew. You're right. It is embarrassing. Embarrassing that you would try to catch me in a gotcha moment when you can't even understand why those things are separate.Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanSpray
Ample time to transition to an Afghan government that waved the white flag? 300,000 men trained to cede the country to the Taliban in weeks? I'm ignoring context when you're the one who won't admit what president actually pulled troops from Afghanistan. Okay. You want your cake and eat it too. All the Taliban were concerned about was retaking Afghanistan. They knew once an diplomatic agreement was in place the ability to set those wheels in motion were in place and they already had made significant inroads to making that happen. The Afghan infrastructure didn't exist to keep themselves afloat and that became evident almost immediately after the US started withdrawing troops.
'Dumb', lol. Back to insulting because you apparently are getting emotional now.Quote:
Originally Posted by metswon69
It's embarrassing that you think someone who initiated for withdrawal doesn't get any credit but the guy who just happened to be president when the withdrawal happened is the one who ultimately 'ordered' the withdrawal. The plans to withdrawal were already happening before Biden took office. Troop count when the negotiations began were at 13,000 troops in Afghanistan. By Jan 15th, there were around 2,500 troops. Did you not know that? It could possibly explain why you're so outraged. So if the withdrawing of troops already happened with over 75% of troops being withdrawn under Trump, how does that not count as 'withdrawing' under Trump?
Yes, contrary to what you think, you need time to evacuate forces, transport equipment, protect Afghan citizens who helped Americans with intel, translation, supply of goods (takes forever to get it processed as you would have to vet them), etc., This is complicated stuff where every decision matters and can cost lives. You seem to think all you have to do is sent a transport plane and have everybody sent home in time for dinner. Be realistic, please.
And I'll just destroy your silly proposition that you didn't need more time to evacuate. Follow along to some facts that unfortunately, alluded you.
1) March 25 — During a press conference at the White House, Biden says “it’s going to be hard to meet the May 1 deadline. Just in terms of tactical reasons, it’s hard to get those troops out.” He assures that “if we leave, we’re going to do so in a safe and orderly way.” Without committing to a pullout date, Biden says, “it is not my intention to stay there for a long time. But the question is: How and in what circumstances do we meet that agreement that was made by President Trump to leave under a deal that looks like it’s not being able to be worked out to begin with? How is that done? But we are not staying a long time.”
2) April 14 — Saying it is “time to end the forever war,” Biden announces that all troops will be removed from Afghanistan by Sept. 11.
“We will not conduct a hasty rush to the exit,” Biden says. “We’ll do it responsibly, deliberately, and safely.” Biden assures Americans that the U.S. has “trained and equipped a standing force of over 300,000 Afghan personnel” and that “they’ll continue to fight valiantly, on behalf of the Afghans, at great cost.”
3) April 15 — In response to Biden’s decision to delay full withdrawal until Sept. 11, the Taliban releases a statement that says failure to complete the withdrawal by May 1 “opens the way for [the Taliban] to take every necessary countermeasure, hence the American side will be held responsible for all future consequences.”
4) April 18 — In a released statement, Trump criticizes Biden’s Sept. 11 withdrawal deadline saying, “we can and should get out earlier.” He concludes, “Getting out of Afghanistan is a wonderful and positive thing to do. I planned to withdraw on May 1st, and we should keep as close to that schedule as possible.”
Biden wanted to take credit, pushed the deadlines further, wanted a 9/11 anniversary announcement to claim he finally 'ended' the Afghanistan war. On one end, you want to give Biden full credit for the withdrawal. On the other end, Biden continuously delayed the withdrawal but you blame Trump for not withdrawing the troops earlier. The confusion stems from you not knowing the facts. You're just reading clickbait headlines and drawing your own conclusion.
I agree. It's unfortunate but Afghanistan was a lost cause. The moment Afghanistan refused to defend their country and with the amount of turmoil within, America can't do anything there anymore. Afghanis are going to have to live under hell there and no doubt, terrorists will arise with Afghanistan being the new safe-haven for terrorists.Quote:
Originally Posted by valade16
I will say, delaying the exit date because you wanted to avoid a rushed exit is a pretty bad rationale considering how rushed his exit ended up being.
It's especially disgusting when the delay was done to celebrate 9/11 and praise Biden for finally ending military conflict in Afghanistan. Why specifically was 9/11 chosen. Was 9/10 or 9/12 impossible? It was done for prop by Biden.Quote:
Originally Posted by valade16
Just another thought, I do want to remind Mets that Biden was mainly chosen for his expertise on foreign policy. That was one part in which Obama critics were highlighting - Obama's weak foreign policy experience. So, why wasn't the withdrawal process happening from 2009-2015?
Biden's own words:
More than seven years later, in 2008, weeks before we swore the oath of office — President Obama and I were about to swear — President Obama asked me to travel to Afghanistan and report back on the state of the war in Afghanistan. I flew to Afghanistan, to the Kunar Valley — a rugged, mountainous region on the border with Pakistan. What I saw on that trip reinforced my conviction that only the Afghans have the right and responsibility to lead their country, and that more and endless American military force could not create or sustain a durable Afghan government.
Source: https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-...n-afghanistan/
So if Biden knew the situation was dire in 2008 and that American military couldn't provide any longer for Afghanistan, Mets, can you explain to me how come Biden didn't convince Obama to withdraw forces earlier? All of a sudden, Trump had already ordered the withdrawal of 10,000 troops in Afghanistan before Biden stepped into office and now Biden is the one who 'withdrew' the troops? Please explain this to me, Mets. I look forward to your insight.
Not emotional. Its a dumb take that you cant give someone credit for withdrawing while being critical of how they did it. Those two aren't mutually exclusive. Btw, re-read your initial post to me and tell me again who decided to make it personal. You have this rage for me when I criticize Trump. His business dealings, his intellect, now his non full withdrawal of troops in Afghanistan. According to you, the Taliban would have quivered in fear with him still as president when they already had taken significant control of much of Afghanistan previous to the mostly full withdrawal timeline.Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanSpray
Its probably because your fingers cant wait for the next insult you are waiting to hurl in my direction. I never said they didn't need time. I said the time needed meant nothing to the outcome or how unprepared the Afghan government and trained military were in handling the Taliban.
Either stop putting words in my mouth or learn to read. Pick one.
Ladies and gentleman, this is an example of someone replying to save face rather than acknowledging that he's simply wrong. Now you're bringing up another thread topic because clearly, you are emotional and presume that I am targeting you. You're easy to decipher. I knew it was going to happen. I would have honestly had more respect for you if you simply just avoided this topic once the facts were presented but the urge to resist replying was too much for you to handle.Quote:
Originally Posted by metswon69
I'm pointing out your hypocrisy. You gave Biden credit for the withdrawal of American troops (even though the majority of troops withdrawing happened under Trump's presidency) but then penalize Trump for not doing so sooner despite Biden being on record consistently delaying the withdrawal. You either didn't know troops were being withdrawn before Biden took office or you're just finding any reason to dislike Trump.
As I've said, you're embarrassing your character here. Blatantly lying, convincing yourself you're right when I've given you multiple sources, and now claiming I have a personal vendetta against you.
Not as easy as you are to decipher. You get awfully defensive when I criticize Trump or when I dont sing his intellectual, professional and presidential praises. You've shown that multiple times already in numerous threads. There's no lying there. Are you another one of those "Poor Trump" types? How adorable. There's a growing community here with you, Special and BOP.Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanSpray
You seem to not understand what the word hypocrisy means either. Nothing about giving Biden credit for taking troops out of Afghanistan and no longer engaging in a war there while being critical of how he did it is hypocrisy. You're funny though. I make a number of the same points Valade makes but no accusations of hypocrisy there. Just at me. Tell me its personal without saying its personal btw.
And you still can't read. Lying about what exactly? That Afghanistan wasn't ready for a stable government and that with all those people trained the outcome would have always remained the same? That the Taliban was already retaking territory almost immediately after we started withdrawing troops?
Me: Trump has an ego and would have wanted to exert it by attacking the Taliban if they attacked American troops.Quote:
Originally Posted by metswon69
You: OMG YOU DEFEND TRUMP EVERY TIME.
I very clearly gave Biden credit... Numerous times I have stated that the withdrawal was necessary. Biden played a role in that and agreed to a withdrawal. Where I disagree with it was how it was handled. And no, you don't get hired by Obama to be his foreign affairs consultant and from 2009-2015, didn't hear one peep about withdrawing from Afghanistan but the moment Trump began withdrawing troops, deserve to be the president credited for withdrawing the troops. I give Biden for continuing the withdrawal. The credit belongs to the person who initially started the motions.
I'll let you jerk your way out of this one. No point. Everyone can see you're wrong about this by following the texts.
Nah, you wanted me to shower him with intellectual praise and tell everyone how great of a businessman he is as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by OceanSpray
And I agreed it was handled poorly. I don't know what else to say. There should have been a more comprehensive plan to get American troops, American civilians, and Afghan civilians out of there. It still doesn't change the fact that you don't know what hypocrisy means or for that matter can seem to grasp that the concepts of withdrawal and how withdrawal happened are two different things.
And I don't believe credit goes exclusively to the person who initiated it. That's the difference between you and I. Politicians promise a lot but much of the time those promises are not fully recognized, are broken, or given reasons why they can't be fulfilled. That easily could have happened here given the interests we have in the Middle East, how abhorrent a Taliban government is to Afghanistan, and how the violence continues over there daily. We've only conceded from 2 wars in American history. We don't handle losing very well.
Trump would have never left Afghanistan with Americans left on the ground there. And teh military would not have done the pullout like they did. They pulled out virtually all of the fighting men out of the country BEFOREQuote:
Originally Posted by valade16
the American citizens and our allies got out. It was left to clerks, maintenance people, cooks, and other support personnel to be the protectors. Veterans watching how Biden and the military that orchestrated that farce are sick to their stomach at what happened.
I gotta say that I place as much blame on the military fools and state department that orchestrated that pullout as I do Biden. Those soldiers did not have to die in that attack and those citizens should have been rescued.