2020-21 game thread

On the brighter side, FVV is looking like he totally worth his new deal. Dude is balling out early on this season trying to keep this team in games, and he just keeps getting better. He had 35 points and 8 boards trying to keep up with Tatum's 40 burger.


I think we have to think about trying:

Len/Baynes
Boucher/Watanabe
Siakam/OG
Lowry/Powell
FVV/Davis

I know defense is a priority, but they need at least 20 ppg combined out of the 2 guys that play with Lowry, FVV and Siakam. OG has struggled to knock down outside shots, and Baynes can't make shots from point blank let alone from behind the arc. So I propose we swap the 2 struggling outside shooters for Len and Boucher. Len has actually shown the ability to space the floor and catch a pass when rolling to the rim, and Boucher looks like he's ready to avg an efficient 15 ppg if they let him play 30+mpg.

Since they already losing, I think they should take a real look at Boucher and Len. I know it would best to develop them against opposing 2nd units first, but maybe something like this will get OG and Baynes going.

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Originally Posted by ecart

eh i don't mind the losses. Masai has had it good for a while, which is why he has been pretty passive all these years (despite originally coming in with a scorched earth approach). This core is pretty *** and I don't believe in it so I don't mind piling up losses if it gets Masai to do something. Then again he can just leave lol.

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I dont beleive in this core either. I said it earlier in the thread not to be critical but to simply look at the team realistically vs its opponents in the east and the raptors dont measure up.

My question is how did we end up here? Was Masai so hell bent on getting Giannis that he didnt have a plan b? I understand keeping the cap space for next year so long as we at least had a shot at getting Giannis but the minute he signed that extension, he was no longer an option. What it seems to me is that Masai scrambled at that point trying to sign whatever big was left in the market. In other words there was no plan b.

I would have taken the rim protection and rebounding from Whiteside for a measily 2 million dollars to replace Gasol.
I would have loved to go after Wood for $13 mill a year to replace Ibaka.

Both contracts have great value. I wonder if we even made a phone call. It just seems to me Masai put all his eggs in one basket and then just signed whoever when that plan didnt go through and now he looks like hes going to bail.

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Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3

There were no big men available after Serge left. Baynes was literally the best one available. Even Tristan Thompson had signed a week or so earlier.

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Its our FO job to get a sence of the temperature on these players considering they were our own free agents.. If we sensed that Ibaka was leaving then we should have been working on his replacements on day one of free agency. Thats if the plan was to stay competitive.

By the looks of the way Masai has handles things, if I were to guess I would say he is leaving. Because he isnt known to be this passive and stand pat while looking at the product on the court and seeing that its clearly not going to work with this combination of players. So I hope he makes some trades but if he infact is leaving chances of that are slim to none.

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Originally Posted by pebloemer

If we keep losing games at this pace, I'll have to start a "2021 NBA Draft Prospect of the Week" thread to link scouting reports, etc of all the likely candidates.

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Fine by me. This is a deep draft. Even if we are 10-20 range thats fine with me.

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

Its our FO job to get a sence of the temperature on these players considering they were our own free agents.. If we sensed that Ibaka was leaving then we should have been working on his replacements on day one of free agency. Thats if the plan was to stay competitive.

By the looks of the way Masai has handles things, if I were to guess I would say he is leaving. Because he isnt known to be this passive and stand pat while looking at the product on the court and seeing that its clearly not going to work with this combination of players. So I hope he makes some trades but if he infact is leaving chances of that are slim to none.

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Yeah but that’s what I was getting at. There was no hint of Serge leaving. Even some players said they never expected it. The money that went to Baynes was probably being kept for Serge.

Masai has been passive for his entire tenure minus 1 year. He is the king of patience.

Serge didnt leave until the day of didnt he?

He wanted to stay, they didnt give him the 2nd year and then he went to LAC that night didnt he?

In terms of replacement, Baynes was pretty good coming in. He just isnt playing well right now. We probably could have gotten someone better than Len though.

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Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ

Serge didnt leave until the day of didnt he?

He wanted to stay, they didnt give him the 2nd year and then he went to LAC that night didnt he?

In terms of replacement, Baynes was pretty good coming in. He just isnt playing well right now. We probably could have gotten someone better than Len though.

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I don’t know what caused him to leave but yeah, he waited a long time to make up his mind. Granted Masai was probably working on locking Fred and OG first.

I didn’t realize how slow Baynes is to react to everything on defence until he got here. I hope they don’t pick up the option for next year.

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Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3

Yeah but that’s what I was getting at. There was no hint of Serge leaving. Even some players said they never expected it. The money that went to Baynes was probably being kept for Serge.

Masai has been passive for his entire tenure minus 1 year. He is the king of patience.

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I think the hope was that Giannis was going to be available and Masai was willingly going to let these guys walk because we needed the cap space for Gannis.

Masai made his name off of trades:
- Carmelo being the first one in Denver
- Tried to trade Lowry NY agreed, then NY backed out
- Traded Gay for GVZ & Patterson
- Traded GVZ for what turned out to be Powell
- Traded Ross for Ibaka
- Traded Derozan & JP for Kawhi & Green
- Traded Jonas & Wright for Gasol

Hes never been passive, and hes know for winning every trade he makes. Thats his rep.

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Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ

Serge didnt leave until the day of didnt he?

He wanted to stay, they didnt give him the 2nd year and then he went to LAC that night didnt he?

In terms of replacement, Baynes was pretty good coming in. He just isnt playing well right now. We probably could have gotten someone better than Len though.

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Why didn't they give him the 2nd year. I think that's the key here... Its because we were keeping cap space open for Giannis. I think we all knew that. Even FVV's contract drops in that 2nd year for the same reason, then climbs back up in year 3&4.

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Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3

Didn’t he say he wasn’t going to negotiate during the season? I think his moves at the deadline will be telling. If he tanks or sells off an expiring or two (Norm) then I think he stays. If he makes a big win now move then I think he’s on the way out. God I hope he stays. I assume Bobby Webster is next in line but I’m not ready for a Masai-less Raptors.

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I read somewhere that ownership wouldn’t consider the harden trade without a Masai extension. I think they’re working on it now.

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Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3

I don’t know what caused him to leave but yeah, he waited a long time to make up his mind. Granted Masai was probably working on locking Fred and OG first.

I didn’t realize how slow Baynes is to react to everything on defence until he got here. I hope they don’t pick up the option for next year.

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we wont. The whole idea of signing Baynes and Len was simply to keep the flexibility for next off season. Which is why Baynes and Len were not guranteed for next year. They were litterally the guys that were left that would sign for cheap short deals. Stop gaps if you will.

I always knew Baynes sucked as I dont remember anything special from him in Boston, and being that I am in the west coast, I catch more west games and he was really nothing specialy in PHX either. The only difference was he developed a shot which is great but the rest of his game still leaves much to be desired.

I actually like Len better, although I know he is limited in what he brings as well.

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

I read somewhere that ownership wouldn’t consider the harden trade without a Masai extension. I think they’re working on it now.

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Honestly just want to see Masai sign... after that I'll put my trust in him to do what he does. My biggest fear is him leaving. If he stays I have full confidence in the mans capability of building another winner. I may not agree with everything that he does but hes a dam good POB. As long as he is here, I think the Raptors will be in good shape in the future. Without him, I'll be having Rob Babcock nightmares. Honestly The raptors have a bad track record for GMs or POBs prior to Masai.

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

Why didn't they give him the 2nd year. I think that's the key here... Its because we were keeping cap space open for Giannis. I think we all knew that. Even FVV's contract drops in that 2nd year for the same reason, then climbs back up in year 3&4.

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We offered double the money on the 1st year with a team option. Ibaka always wanted to go to LA, and his new clothing line and other marketing things are all the proof I need.

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

We offered double the money on the 1st year with a team option. Ibaka always wanted to go to LA, and his new clothing line and other marketing things are all the proof I need.

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Thats cool. Was never my point though. read the thread.

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Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3

The only deal that hurts is the Gasol one really. That was a necessary trade but it was going to hurt in the long run. I have no qualms with dealing Ross, DeMar and Poeltl considering what we got in return. Hell, I thought Serge would still be here.

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Oh, I have no issue with any of the trades. Just acknowledging that part of what we are seeing is the long-term cost of trading many young assets for short-term upgrades. Totally worth it, just time to stock up on assets again.

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

I think the hope was that Giannis was going to be available and Masai was willingly going to let these guys walk because we needed the cap space for Gannis.

Masai made his name off of trades:
- Carmelo being the first one in Denver
- Tried to trade Lowry NY agreed, then NY backed out
- Traded Gay for GVZ & Patterson
- Traded GVZ for what turned out to be Powell
- Traded Ross for Ibaka
- Traded Derozan & JP for Kawhi & Green
- Traded Jonas & Wright for Gasol

Hes never been passive, and hes know for winning every trade he makes. Thats his rep.

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If I could pull up some trade deadline trades from before we made the trade for Ibaka... :)

It was a long time ago, but we definitely maligned him for not being aggressive enough. Then that all changed in a VERY big way.

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Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ

Fine by me. This is a deep draft. Even if we are 10-20 range thats fine with me.

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Yea, it doesn't need to be a "tank thread" there are some risers that are starting to work their way up draft boards too. G-League hasn't even started yet and two of the big prospects elected to play for the G-League instead of college. It is an interesting draft class to discuss for a bunch of reasons.

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Originally Posted by pebloemer

If I could pull up some trade deadline trades from before we made the trade for Ibaka... :)

It was a long time ago, but we definitely maligned him for not being aggressive enough. Then that all changed in a VERY big way.

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well he wasn't here for very long before that. He did make a big splash when he traded Gay, and he did try to blow it up once by trading Lowry before Dolan got involved and literally made his GM back out of the trade. So he wasnt being passive as those were two of the biggest 3 names we had at the time. I think when he first got here he had to evaluate the core of Lowry/Derozan/Jonas/Tross before making any moves. But once he started making those moves the entire roster almost changed. The only one left is Lowry and ironically he tried to trade him first.

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

Thats cool. Was never my point though. read the thread.

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The point was that you and everyone else was surprised he left right? Sry not sure what I’m missing.

I don't get Nurse... he said he is disappointed with Thomas&Davis and he cannot play them because they make to many mistakes on defense. But he plays Stanley "I can't shoot to save my life" Johnson and makes him take 3s alongside Baynes who btw can't even catch a simple pass in the paint. Whoever encourages those two to shoot it from behind the line needs to get some sleep. Stanley Johnson should never see an NBA court besides for practice. The only way to use him is to throw him in, depending on matchups and try to wear down one of the opposing wings and that just in limited minutes as a last resort off the bench. It is beyond me why Nurse keeps playing these scrubs. At least he can try and find some playing time for Flynn (Boston is doing it with Pritchard).

We have to do something with this 2 PG lineup, I know that the league plays small and the 3 ball wins you games nowadays, but this s*t ain't working for us anymore, not with 2 undersized guards like ours. I can understand that we need playmaking since besides Lowry and FVV nobody seems to know how to get a shot up, but with the current team it is generating more problems than it solves. We are desperately relying on two 6 foot PGs to do everything on the court on both offense and defense night in and night out. It worked with Kawhi because of many reasons but it's not working now, does it?

Another problem I have with our offense is that we don't run enough plays for guys like Siakam and Anunoby. They both don't have the handles to create they're own shot, but you have 2 PGs basically all the time on the floor who can distribute and pass the rock very well, creating for them. They just have to move and run some plays, as simple as that. Instead they're camping on the 3 point line and we're bombing away from deep even though besides Klow and FVV (and Thomas, the 50% from 3 guy who got stuck behind Stanley f*g Johnson) nobody can consistently sink it. And what is up with Anunoby, why isn't he cutting anymore? Granted, he doesn't have Gasol at the top of the key to find him, but come on. Is the same thing as with Siakam's spin, got lost in the postseason somewhere.

Okay, I got everything off my chest for now, sorry for the long post 😄

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

Why didn't they give him the 2nd year. I think that's the key here... Its because we were keeping cap space open for Giannis. I think we all knew that. Even FVV's contract drops in that 2nd year for the same reason, then climbs back up in year 3&4.

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Yea it was for Giannis. It was the right decision too. Should have maxed the 2021 cap space.

I was more surprised we didnt offer a 1 year $20 mil deal but they didnt want to go over luxury. Tampa costs being pretty expensive doesnt help.

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

The point was that you and everyone else was surprised he left right? Sry not sure what I’m missing.

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point was that Masai went all in for Giannis next year and kept the cap flexibility. Other wise we could have signed a guy like Wood? Maybe Whiteside for 2 mill to replace Gasol? Maybe offered Serge longer term? Moving on from that we clearly need to make a move or two. So what comes in to question is his own extension. To your point, would that possibly get in the way of any substantial deals? Is that why we have the stop gap bigs? Because Masai didn’t want to commit to long term deals? It would make sense to me. I’ll breath easier once he signs, as I think that’s the first and most important domino

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Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ

Yea it was for Giannis. It was the right decision too. Should have maxed the 2021 cap space.

I was more surprised we didnt offer a 1 year $20 mil deal but they didnt want to go over luxury. Tampa costs being pretty expensive doesnt help.

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It’s all good, losing Serge hurt but not the end of the world. We do need to shake thinks up a bit though IMO. Either retool to stay competitive or rebuild for the future.

Bang on, the only part I would disagree is that out of the two, lowry is the actual playmaker. It just seems that whenever he and fred play together, he defers to fred in having the ball and playing off the ball. Fred gets his assists simply because of the fact he has hands on the ball most of the time. Lowry last couple years had to go into more of a shoot first guy and yet averaged 7.5 last year and this year in assists. So I agree the 2 small guard lineup isnt working and solution is definitely to split em up but that also is justified by the fact I think the team offence will generate better with lowry running point with the starters vs fred or just staggering them. Would like to see norm as a regular starter in either the 2 spot or the 3 spot. I mentioned in a previous post the 3 spot cause I know how hell bent nurse is on his fred/klow guard starting lineup.

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Originally Posted by LWB

I don't get Nurse... he said he is disappointed with Thomas&Davis and he cannot play them because they make to many mistakes on defense. But he plays Stanley "I can't shoot to save my life" Johnson and makes him take 3s alongside Baynes who btw can't even catch a simple pass in the paint. Whoever encourages those two to shoot it from behind the line needs to get some sleep. Stanley Johnson should never see an NBA court besides for practice. The only way to use him is to throw him in, depending on matchups and try to wear down one of the opposing wings and that just in limited minutes as a last resort off the bench. It is beyond me why Nurse keeps playing these scrubs. At least he can try and find some playing time for Flynn (Boston is doing it with Pritchard).

We have to do something with this 2 PG lineup, I know that the league plays small and the 3 ball wins you games nowadays, but this s*t ain't working for us anymore, not with 2 undersized guards like ours. I can understand that we need playmaking since besides Lowry and FVV nobody seems to know how to get a shot up, but with the current team it is generating more problems than it solves. We are desperately relying on two 6 foot PGs to do everything on the court on both offense and defense night in and night out. It worked with Kawhi because of many reasons but it's not working now, does it?

Another problem I have with our offense is that we don't run enough plays for guys like Siakam and Anunoby. They both don't have the handles to create they're own shot, but you have 2 PGs basically all the time on the floor who can distribute and pass the rock very well, creating for them. They just have to move and run some plays, as simple as that. Instead they're camping on the 3 point line and we're bombing away from deep even though besides Klow and FVV (and Thomas, the 50% from 3 guy who got stuck behind Stanley f*g Johnson) nobody can consistently sink it. And what is up with Anunoby, why isn't he cutting anymore? Granted, he doesn't have Gasol at the top of the key to find him, but come on. Is the same thing as with Siakam's spin, got lost in the postseason somewhere.

Okay, I got everything off my chest for now, sorry for the long post 😄

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Trying to soothe myself before the western trip dive into more video and stats. I think just simply addressing our poor rebounding will solve a lot of the issues. I was surprised that we actually rank half decent in our defensive rating. But almost the worst in cleaning up the boards. Obviously thats forcing us to play half court offence where we clearly dont have the personnel to play that style. Guys are definitely leaking out trying to go for easy transitions. Not sure if we can go out and grab an elite rebounder or just get better as a TEAM to finish defensive possessions. We got fred and lowry with 5 a game.... cant be consistently relying on those two to bang bodies for rebounds while also running the offence throughout the season with no help on the offensive end as well. If anything the team owes that to those two.

I still think they will figure this out. Its just a matter of time. Dont need wins every game heck I wouldnt even care about playoffs. Just need to see them atleast fight and stay in games.

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Originally Posted by driftindirt

Trying to soothe myself before the western trip dive into more video and stats. I think just simply addressing our poor rebounding will solve a lot of the issues. I was surprised that we actually rank half decent in our defensive rating. But almost the worst in cleaning up the boards. Obviously thats forcing us to play half court offence where we clearly dont have the personnel to play that style. Guys are definitely leaking out trying to go for easy transitions. Not sure if we can go out and grab an elite rebounder or just get better as a TEAM to finish defensive possessions. We got fred and lowry with 5 a game.... cant be consistently relying on those two to bang bodies for rebounds while also running the offence throughout the season with no help on the offensive end as well. If anything the team owes that to those two.

I still think they will figure this out. Its just a matter of time. Dont need wins every game heck I wouldnt even care about playoffs. Just need to see them atleast fight and stay in games.

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I’m seriously questioning if they’ll figure it out without a fan base. I think this is the perfect season to tank if we cannot have a good team around harden.

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

I’m seriously questioning if they’ll figure it out without a fan base. I think this is the perfect season to tank if we cannot have a good team around harden.

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I don't love "tanking" per se, but I agree.

Season is 10 games shorter.
No home games.
From a business standpoint, revenues would be limited if we were a winning team anyways.
Lowry on last year of his deal - clarity on whether to deal him for assets
Good upcoming draft in 2021
Most of the core is still relatively young.
30 million in cap room next off-season (unless Powell opts in, which I once though impossible, but he has been brutal).

Raptors are tanking this season away...it is so obvious that is what y'all are trying to do hence losing games that you should be winning. 2021 Draft is supposed to be loaded from what I hear...Cade Cunningham, Jalen Suggs, BJ Boston, Jonathan Kuminga, Jalen Green...like it is so obvious that y'all are doing what you doing.

Hence, why the fanbase is gettin upset

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Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3

Didn’t he say he wasn’t going to negotiate during the season? I think his moves at the deadline will be telling. If he tanks or sells off an expiring or two (Norm) then I think he stays. If he makes a big win now move then I think he’s on the way out. God I hope he stays. I assume Bobby Webster is next in line but I’m not ready for a Masai-less Raptors.

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I'm not sure, will look into it but I'm guessing I missed that as I dont recall him saying that. I think he said something along the lines of there being a lot going on and he is focused on getting his team new contracts before focusing on his.

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

exactly... and Im trying to stay positive, but the way everyone is being so quiet on the subject and the fact that he hasn't signed yet, add the fact that hes setting the team up to clear a bunch of cap space next year makes me think the worst. I also think this is why the Raptors are in the state they are in. If Masai is leaving he probably didn't want to comitt to any long term contracts in the off season, hence the result of Len & Baynes.

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I wasn't necessarily worried before. I always felt he would return but I'm just surprised that it hasn't been done yet. I'd like to think it will get done before the trade deadline.

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man that first defensive stand in the first few minutes just summed up the season. They are all fighting to stay ahead of their man and getting a hand up but god damn some one please blockkkkkk out. Lowry was pissed. Damn Baynes belongs on the box of lucky charms... nothing more

Watching a couple of possessions early on and also looking back at the first 5 games, it feels though if pascal just adds a bit of a hesitation to his moves or just adds a couple of pump fakes he can get a lot more calls. Last year OG was doing so as well getting in the paint faking and going up strong. These guys are looking for the call on the first move. Very predictable.

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Originally Posted by driftindirt

Watching a couple of possessions early on and also looking back at the first 5 games, it feels though if pascal just adds a bit of a hesitation to his moves or just adds a couple of pump fakes he can get a lot more calls. Last year OG was doing so as well getting in the paint faking and going up strong. These guys are looking for the call on the first move. Very predictable.

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I think Pascal looking a bit disjointed when attacking the rim hurts his chances of getting calls because it already feels like he is compromised before he makes his final move to the basket. He just has to be stronger on the ball. I think he will improve as the season progresses.

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He looks heaps better today, He isn't looking for the foul, going up strong

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Originally Posted by aman_13

I think Pascal looking a bit disjointed when attacking the rim hurts his chances of getting calls because it already feels like he is compromised before he makes his final move to the basket. He just has to be stronger on the ball. I think he will improve as the season progresses.

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Yup looking really good so far.

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Offensive rebounds, and booker starting to get hot. Might get away any moment now... the margin for errors in these games are basically none.

Tough one. They played well enough offensively. The Suns couldn't miss from three and the Raptors just could not get enough stops. The front court is a huge concern.

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Most satisfying loss of the season so far?

Hope siakam plays like this next game too.

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

Most satisfying loss of the season so far?

Hope siakam plays like this next game too.

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Definitely one of their better games.

Siakam played really well. Very engaged on both ends.

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Originally Posted by pebloemer

I don't love "tanking" per se, but I agree.

Season is 10 games shorter.
No home games.
From a business standpoint, revenues would be limited if we were a winning team anyways.
Lowry on last year of his deal - clarity on whether to deal him for assets
Good upcoming draft in 2021
Most of the core is still relatively young.
30 million in cap room next off-season (unless Powell opts in, which I once though impossible, but he has been brutal).

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If the Raptors had a miserable season with our talented core and got a top 4 pick, would I really be sad? This is an awesome draft class, and while I think that Cade Cunningham is the jewel of it, us getting Jalen Suggs, or Evan Mobley would also be potential star level acquisition. We keep racking our heads on how to add a star to the team, when quite frankly, the best way would honestly be just to mail it in for a season. Now, I don't expect the guys on the court to see it that way, and I expect them to fight. However, picture coming into the 21/22 season with a starting lineup of Vanvleet, Cunningham, OG, Siakam and maybe a John Collins or Jarrett Allen that we can get with the 30 mil in cap space plus some, all locked up for 3+ years. I would feel very optimistic about the future of that team.

This team, as constructed cannot compete. I've said it on another thread, but I'll say it again. Our window doesn't match Lowry's. With his blessing, I would trade him for some decent bench players and a couple first rounders to an actual contender where he could be the missing piece. That obviously would help us "tank" this year, and Lowry could possibly get another chip. These fantasies of fleecing moves to get a James Harden are a) not going to happen and b) not going to make us championship contenders with the pieces we would lose. The Kawhi thing was a once off that I am so grateful for. But, a sober look at the future is actually quite bright, and we can't mortgage it to get a 6th seed in the East.