2020-21 game thread

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

I disagree. I’d say we are closer to winning. I think we would have made the playoffs this season if we had any home games. Or even if we just never got struck by covid. I also think we are in line for a quick turn around next season.

I don’t see siakam’s contract as something that will hold us back. Not having siakam would be holding us back more than his contract will. It’s not easy to find a 20/8/5 PF who can defend any position.

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100% agree with this. This was just a year of unforeseen obstacles that derailed us at every turn. Now are there some glaring issues? Yes. However, I don't think those issues are the core of Freddy, Siakam or OG. I think our utter lack of depth or burgeoning talent has been highlighted. I mean, you shouldn't have to be debating whether to give significant minutes to Paul Watson, Stanley Johnson, Yuta Watanabe or Terrence Davis. That is a glaring deficiency. Also, we don't play small ball because we're super into the modern day NBA. We play it because we don't have anyone trustworthy to put at the 5. Last year, we had Gasol starting, and a bench unit that included Norm, Serge and RHJ, with players like T Davis and Boucher playing spot minutes. This year, we're forced to play Norm as a starter due to his actual play, but also the circumstances. In order to become a formidable force again, we need that back end talent for Nurse to play with, and we need a viable big option. But, those are all issues we can solve in an offseason if we make smart trades for assets and utilize our $25 million in cap space effectively. I choose to be optimistic, and see this wreck of a season as a springboard to a quick turnaround.

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Originally Posted by Saint Raptor

100% agree with this. This was just a year of unforeseen obstacles that derailed us at every turn. Now are there some glaring issues? Yes. However, I don't think those issues are the core of Freddy, Siakam or OG. I think our utter lack of depth or burgeoning talent has been highlighted. I mean, you shouldn't have to be debating whether to give significant minutes to Paul Watson, Stanley Johnson, Yuta Watanabe or Terrence Davis. That is a glaring deficiency. Also, we don't play small ball because we're super into the modern day NBA. We play it because we don't have anyone trustworthy to put at the 5. Last year, we had Gasol starting, and a bench unit that included Norm, Serge and RHJ, with players like T Davis and Boucher playing spot minutes. This year, we're forced to play Norm as a starter due to his actual play, but also the circumstances. In order to become a formidable force again, we need that back end talent for Nurse to play with, and we need a viable big option. But, those are all issues we can solve in an offseason if we make smart trades for assets and utilize our $25 million in cap space effectively. I choose to be optimistic, and see this wreck of a season as a springboard to a quick turnaround.

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I am cautiously optimistic about Siakam. I think playing outside of Toronto has affected him. He has been inconsistent as a max player. But I think he can still be a good core piece. But completely agree with the depth issues. If raptors were planning to make a run in the playoffs this year, losing Gasol and Ibaka put a major dent in to that. Playing in tampa and the convid issues definitely hurt them. But even if they made the playoffs, I don't think they could have gone far with this current team. To me this is a great opportunity for this team to retool. I hope they are able to trade Lowry and Powell for some pieces. Then we can look forward to the draft.

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

I disagree. I’d say we are closer to winning. I think we would have made the playoffs this season if we had any home games. Or even if we just never got struck by covid. I also think we are in line for a quick turn around next season.

I don’t see siakam’s contract as something that will hold us back. Not having siakam would be holding us back more than his contract will. It’s not easy to find a 20/8/5 PF who can defend any position.

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Those are fantastic numbers for a guy leading his team to an epic 11th seed and losing to the rockets lol.... sure blame Florida. If you think that’s some sort of disadvantage to be in sunshine rather than in the cold. most of these guys if not all of them came from the states.

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Originally Posted by Sadds The Gr8

That contract is looking god awful now. Can't believe how far he's fallen

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How come no one else HERE sees it? It’s like he’s duped the entire franchise to thinking he’s worth $33 mill a year? And they don’t get how that hamstrings us

It's whatever. If we didn't pay him someone else would have and we would have lost him for nothing. Would have been a PR nightmare on the heels of a championship. It's not like it would have changed our cap situation either.

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Originally Posted by ecart

It's whatever. If we didn't pay him someone else would have and we would have lost him for nothing. Would have been a PR nightmare on the heels of a championship. It's not like it would have changed our cap situation either.

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I see him as a trade piece. Maybe not this year but once Norm and Kyle leave and he is further exposed I can def see us trying to move on from him. Although by that point it might be difficult to move him.

To me it’s not whatever at all, I see his contract and inability to live up to it being the story of the next era in raptors basketball. A dark cloud I didn’t want the franchise to be under for the next 3 season. But I guess I can relive the Bosh era, First round exits and all.. it is what it is.

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

I see him as a trade piece. Maybe not this year but once Norm and Kyle leave and he is further exposed I can def see us trying to move on from him. Although by that point it might be difficult to move him.

To me it’s not whatever at all, I see his contract and inability to live up to it being the story of the next era in raptors basketball. A dark cloud I didn’t want the franchise to be under for the next 3 season. But I guess I can relived the Bosh era, First round exits and all.. it is what it is.

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It is possible we draft and develop a superstar and it won’t be such an issue. The future hasn’t been written yet.

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

I see him as a trade piece. Maybe not this year but once Norm and Kyle leave and he is further exposed I can def see us trying to move on from him. Although by that point it might be difficult to move him.

To me it’s not whatever at all, I see his contract and inability to live up to it being the story of the next era in raptors basketball. A dark cloud I didn’t want the franchise to be under for the next 3 season. But I guess I can relive the Bosh era, First round exits and all.. it is what it is.

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It's whatever to me cause we're not the Lakers. It was always gonna be like this unless we got lucky and got a superstar in the draft. It's not like we're gonna spend the cap on Giannis lmfao. Siakam can still be a pretty good no.2 or no.3 guy. Those guys get his contracts nowadays as well

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Originally Posted by pebloemer

It is possible we draft and develop a superstar and it won’t be such an issue. The future hasn’t been written yet.

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That’s why I think we need to give up on this season and land a high pick. I know you are of the same mind set. Imagine stringing together some wins just to enter the play in tourni for the heck of it. That would make me so mad bro lol

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

That’s why I think we need to give up on this season and land a high pick. I know you are of the same mind set. Imagine stringing together some wins just to enter the play in tourni for the heck of it. That would make me so mad bro lol

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WiNnInG cUlTuRe

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

That’s why I think we need to give up on this season and land a high pick. I know you are of the same mind set. Imagine stringing together some wins just to enter the play in tourni for the heck of it. That would make me so mad bro lol

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Yup. I am shocked they lost last night still. Can’t believe how bad this stretch has gotten. I know it sucks for fans right now, but I think this stretch just ahead of the deadline makes tough decisions much easier for this front office. And you and I agree, these decisions need to happen.

I am ready for a new era of Raptors basketball.

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Originally Posted by ecart

OG showing his value.

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Not sure we talk about his defensive impact enough.

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Originally Posted by ecart

It's whatever to me cause we're not the Lakers. It was always gonna be like this unless we got lucky and got a superstar in the draft. It's not like we're gonna spend the cap on Giannis lmfao. Siakam can still be a pretty good no.2 or no.3 guy. Those guys get his contracts nowadays as well

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Lol it is cute that we put all our eggs in that Giannis basket.

But you’re right, one thing I will say is that good power forwards are scarce, and the premium could be just that. I get why Masai had to do it. But hey if we get an opportunity to trade him for some real assets I’m giving that strong consideration. Or I should say I’d like our FO too.

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

Lol it is cute that we put all our eggs in that Giannis basket.

But you’re right, one thing I will say is that good power forwards are scarce, and the premium could be just that. I get why Masai had to do it. But hey if we get an opportunity to trade him for some real assets I’m giving that strong consideration. Or I should say I’d like our FO too.

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Like Wiggins and the Twolves pick?😀

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Originally Posted by ecart

WiNnInG cUlTuRe

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I mean it’s a quarter of the season left. I’m not entirely sure we even really need to tank. We lose to teams like the rockets and timberwolves. We’re pretty much 75% of the way there.

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Originally Posted by pebloemer

Like Wiggins and the Twolves pick?😀

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That pick is top 3 protected and the Twolves are in last place. I’m not sure how that works, do they get to keep it if their pick lands in the top 3?

Wiggins although, I dislike him as a player, has improved somewhat this year, especially defensively. But his contract is trash, Siakam is better than Wiggins. I’m not that big of a Pascal hater lol

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

I mean it’s a quarter of the season left. I’m not entirely sure we even really need to tank. We lose to teams like the rockets and timberwolves. We’re pretty much 75% of the way there.

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I don't think winning these games just to get knocked out of the first round is productive. People always talk about how it contributes to winning culture, players get play off experience etc. But you just need talent period. I remember people talking about how if we just get to the playoffs Toronto would be a free agent destination. Dream on.

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

That pick is top 3 protected and the Twolves are in last place. I’m not sure how that works, do they get to keep it if their pick lands in the top 3?

Wiggins although, I dislike him as a player, has improved somewhat this year, especially defensively. But his contract is trash, Siakam is better than Wiggins. I’m not that big of a Pascal hater lol

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It's protected. Unprotected year after.

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Originally Posted by pebloemer

Yup. I am shocked they lost last night still. Can’t believe how bad this stretch has gotten. I know it sucks for fans right now, but I think this stretch just ahead of the deadline makes tough decisions much easier for this front office. And you and I agree, these decisions need to happen.

I am ready for a new era of Raptors basketball.

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I’m not in disbelief at all. NBA is a star driven league. If you don’t have that bonafide super star or two you better have a strong 9-10 man rotation and quality depth. Any team who lacks both is going to struggle. I’m with you in that we need to usher in a new era. The Lowry era ended with a ship and that that is the best way for any era to end but at the same time, it’s time to set the team up for its next run. If we continue to stubbornly stick to what we have and lose assets to free agency we’re just digging a whole that will be difficult to come out from. It’s good to know when to restart and stay a head of the game. I don’t need to tell you, you’ve been preaching the same for a while now.

I’m just shocked people are still hoping for a playoff birth, why? For straight up embarrassment purposes? Or do we actually think that Giannis, Embiid, Harden, Durant won’t take a dump on us in the first round?

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

That pick is top 3 protected and the Twolves are in last place. I’m not sure how that works, do they get to keep it if their pick lands in the top 3?

Wiggins although, I dislike him as a player, has improved somewhat this year, especially defensively. But his contract is trash, Siakam is better than Wiggins. I’m not that big of a Pascal hater lol

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Taking on Wiggins would be the cost in order to get the pick. As ecart mentioned, pick becomes unprotected next year if Wolves land in Top 3 this year.

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Originally Posted by ecart

I don't think winning these games just to get knocked out of the first round is productive. People always talk about how it contributes to winning culture, players get play off experience etc. But you just need talent period. I remember people talking about how if we just get to the playoffs Toronto would be a free agent destination. Dream on.

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Lol Yeah Dream on for real. That mentality is wishful to say the least. Toronto isn’t a free agent destination due to its inability to win. It’s simply to the fact that it’s the only city outside the U.S, and most of these young American players have never left the country. It’s the foreign concept that some of them can’t wrap their heads around. But once they get here they seem to like it more than most American cities like Minni, Indiana, Detroit, or Cleveland etc.

But yeah I know the type of fan you’re talking about. I’m just not the type of fan to wear rose coloured glasses and maybe I come off as negative but I really I think the productive thing to do is look toward the draft in a season like this. If we’re committed to the Freddy/Siakam/OG core, our best bet is to land a star through the draft.

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Originally Posted by pebloemer

Taking on Wiggins would be the cost in order to get the pick. As ecart mentioned, pick becomes unprotected next year if Wolves land in Top 3 this year.

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That’s a tough one, the pick is desirable. But taking Wiggins on isn’t. I honestly don’t know.

Andrew frustrates me more than any other player. He doesn’t have the fire, there’s no fight in him. Every time he plays he looks like he’s just going through the motion. He has all the talent and god given tools in the world but he just lacks hustle, heart, basically everything that makes Lowry great. I just don’t get it with that dude.

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Originally Posted by ecart

I don't think winning these games just to get knocked out of the first round is productive. People always talk about how it contributes to winning culture, players get play off experience etc. But you just need talent period. I remember people talking about how if we just get to the playoffs Toronto would be a free agent destination. Dream on.

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I don't understand that either. Winning culture is great if we are an ideal destination for free agents to flock. But we are far from it. We definitely need to get more talent. Teams like raptors can only get star players through draft or trade. I know MU hates losing, but sometimes you have to let it happen naturally. I still think this team is too good to get a lotto pick as it is now. They may easily go on a 6 or 7 game winning streak with lot of terrible teams in the east. So I really hope we trade some key players away for youth and picks. We definitely need a high pick this year.

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Originally Posted by ecart

WiNnInG cUlTuRe

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A chip in 2019 with this coach and our young core established that I think, it's time to retool and trade away our expiring contracts. Outside of FVV I'm not sure anyone would be untouchable.

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Originally Posted by pebloemer

Taking on Wiggins would be the cost in order to get the pick. As ecart mentioned, pick becomes unprotected next year if Wolves land in Top 3 this year.

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Actually after some thought, yes I take that deal. Let me tell you why.

This is what Siakam is owed after this season $31,320,000,$33,640,000,$35,960,000

This is what Wiggins is owed after this season $31,579,390, $33,616,770

Wiggins becomes an expiring after next season. So if it means getting out of that final year of paying Siakam $36 million, while adding a top 10 pick (Minnis pick will be top 10 for sure this year and very likely next year) and all we would have to do is endure Wiggins for a season or two? I’m considering that. It’s not a move that helps us improve now, but I think it helps us in a year or two for certain.

I think the Wolves are gonna be good next year. Finch too good of a coach to bottom out. idk if they'll make playoffs but they will be decent imo.

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Originally Posted by Chaotic98

A chip in 2019 with this coach and our young core established that I think, it's time to retool and trade away our expiring contracts. Outside of FVV I'm not sure anyone would be untouchable.

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Agreed. And he agrees too. He’s just pointing out where other fans stand on it. I think most intelligent fans realize we have an opportunity to land a pretty dam good pick and we shouldn’t squander it just to face the Bucks, Nets, or 6ers in the first round.

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Originally Posted by ecart

I think the Wolves are gonna be good next year. Finch too good of a coach to bottom out. idk if they'll make playoffs but they will be decent imo.

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I watch them closely. I have Edwards and Beasly on my fantasy team. This year is a write off for them with Russell being out and Beasly being suspended for 12 games. But if their roster comes back looking similar they will still be bad. They have a lot of work to do on that roster before it becomes ready to compete in the west which is as competitive as ever. Kat, Russell, Edwards, Beasly, Culver is their core. They don’t have much depth behind them and Rubio is like their lone veteran presence. A lot can change in an off-season so who knows but consider the teams they have to battle for a playoff spot out west.

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Originally Posted by killersweet

I don't understand that either. Winning culture is great if we are an ideal destination for free agents to flock. But we are far from it. We definitely need to get more talent. Teams like raptors can only get star players through draft or trade. I know MU hates losing, but sometimes you have to let it happen naturally. I still think this team is too good to get a lotto pick as it is now. They may easily go on a 6 or 7 game winning streak with lot of terrible teams in the east. So I really hope we trade some key players away for youth and picks. We definitely need a high pick this year.

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I certainly believe in the value of winning culture. Moreso to develop talent than to attract players. But keeping a core of FVV, OG and Siakam with a younger talented group around them would have me optimistic they can sustain some of the culture. This year is a lost season IMO. I wouldn't want a prolonged stretch of losing seasons. I think that can have a toll on franchises. But recognizing the moments to step back are important.

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

I watch them closely. I have Edwards and Beasly on my fantasy team. This year is a write off for them with Russell being out and Beasly being suspended for 12 games. But if their roster comes back looking similar they will still be bad. They have a lot of work to do on that roster before it becomes ready to compete in the west which is as competitive as ever. Kat, Russell, Edwards, Beasly, Culver is their core. They don’t have much depth behind them and Rubio is like their lone veteran presence. A lot can change in an off-season so who knows but consider the teams they have to battle for a playoff spot out west.

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Yeah but Finch is their first real NBA coach. Previous coach only got the job cause his dad died.

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Originally Posted by pebloemer

I certainly believe in the value of winning culture. Moreso to develop talent than to attract players. But keeping a core of FVV, OG and Siakam with a younger talented group around them would have me optimistic they can sustain some of the culture. This year is a lost season IMO. I wouldn't want a prolonged stretch of losing seasons. I think that can have a toll on franchises. But recognizing the moments to step back are important.

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I think that's just confounded by the fact that franchises that perpetually lose are often poorly managed in the first place.

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Originally Posted by ecart

I think that's just confounded by the fact that franchises that perpetually lose are often poorly managed in the first place.

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Fair point

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Originally Posted by ecart

Yeah but Finch is their first real NBA coach. Previous coach only got the job cause his dad died.

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I get that but I think coaching will take them so far, look at Nurse for example this season he’s dealt with a depleted roster and the results are what they are. I also don’t think Kat & Russell are built to lead. They’re gonna need Edwards to become a lot more effecient as well they need some solid vets and a bench. I think Edwards does become more effecient once Russell & Beasly come back and his usage decreases a bit. Again a lot can change in an off-season but just looking at some of the other teams out west, I see the Twolves being on the outside 8 in their conference again.

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Originally Posted by pebloemer

I certainly believe in the value of winning culture. Moreso to develop talent than to attract players. But keeping a core of FVV, OG and Siakam with a younger talented group around them would have me optimistic they can sustain some of the culture. This year is a lost season IMO. I wouldn't want a prolonged stretch of losing seasons. I think that can have a toll on franchises. But recognizing the moments to step back are important.

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As Ecart pointed out, I don't expect the raptors to be stuck in a rut with the people they have incharge. I hope MU sticks around and with him on board, I see a quick turn around. His draft history has been excellent. That's why I think having multiple picks this year will replenish our system and the retooling will be fast.

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

How come no one else HERE sees it? It’s like he’s duped the entire franchise to thinking he’s worth $33 mill a year? And they don’t get how that hamstrings us

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I don’t think he has played upto a 33 million contract since the bubble. But I do think that is his going rate on the open market.

I remember when we didn’t have a PF. Those derozan teams pre-ibaka trade when we were rolling out BeBe. Imo that team wins 10 more games with prime siakam. Not all max players have to be the #1 offensive option. Infact - most max players aren’t.

It’s not that they’re playing in Florida this season, it’s that they ARENT playing at home with our fans and home cooking. Fans have the biggest impact on basketball than any other sport imo. It’s a momentum driven game. If you are detecting a lack of motivation I think we can pray it’s a factor.

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

Actually after some thought, yes I take that deal. Let me tell you why.

This is what Siakam is owed after this season $31,320,000,$33,640,000,$35,960,000

This is what Wiggins is owed after this season $31,579,390, $33,616,770

Wiggins becomes an expiring after next season. So if it means getting out of that final year of paying Siakam $36 million, while adding a top 10 pick (Minnis pick will be top 10 for sure this year and very likely next year) and all we would have to do is endure Wiggins for a season or two? I’m considering that. It’s not a move that helps us improve now, but I think it helps us in a year or two for certain.

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See, I’m looking to punt this season, but I’m not looking to punt the next 2 seasons and FVV’s prime.
I’m hoping for a quick turn around, you’re mapping out a complete tear down.

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

I get that but I think coaching will take them so far, look at Nurse for example this season he’s dealt with a depleted roster and the results are what they are. I also don’t think Kat & Russell are built to lead. They’re gonna need Edwards to become a lot more effecient as well they need some solid vets and a bench. I think Edwards does become more effecient once Russell & Beasly come back and his usage decreases a bit. Again a lot can change in an off-season but just looking at some of the other teams out west, I see the Twolves being on the outside 8 in their conference again.

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Anyone else been impressed by nurses ability to switch from “win now mode” to “development first mode”? Dudes a good coach. No ego.

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

I get that but I think coaching will take them so far, look at Nurse for example this season he’s dealt with a depleted roster and the results are what they are. I also don’t think Kat & Russell are built to lead. They’re gonna need Edwards to become a lot more effecient as well they need some solid vets and a bench. I think Edwards does become more effecient once Russell & Beasly come back and his usage decreases a bit. Again a lot can change in an off-season but just looking at some of the other teams out west, I see the Twolves being on the outside 8 in their conference again.

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Yeah but Nurse still puts his guys in good positions to produce, we just lack talent. Saunders has never put his guys in a good spot, so it is hard to say where their talent level actually is. I think Kat is a sleeping giant.

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

Anyone else been impressed by nurses ability to switch from “win now mode” to “development first mode”? Dudes a good coach. No ego.

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Yes agreed, but tell that to pascal apparently there’s turmoil between them.

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Originally Posted by smith&wesson

Yes agreed, but tell that to pascal apparently there’s turmoil between them.

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Losing creates all kinds of issues. I don’t think Siakam is doing well being away from Toronto. He is probably having a tough time with the expectations and his performance. We can only hope he gets over them. If this was happening in Toronto under normal circumstances this would be a bigger deal. Let’s blame this on covid 😏