Add Pearson, LGJR, biggio and teo to the list that people will grumble about if the don’t pan out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Powders
But yeah assuming some of these guys work out we should be contending. Th not working out goes hand in hand with us still not contending in a few years.
Definitely optimistic he can get us there. It’s just a question of how long the leash is if he can’t do it.
Tons of teams have been in this position before without winning a championship. We’ll see.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
Well sure, if the players you draft don't pan out then there should be grumblings. Two has already provided more then enough value for what they gave up to get him, so I'm not going to get to upset if he doesn't pan out. Plus he and Gurriel are both around 27 now, so it may be a case of they are what they are.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
I know I may.come off as an optimist but I'm fine with where the organization is at right now and the general consensus among people around the league is that is a agreed upon. The team appears to be in an enviable position and this FO put it there. He deserves to see it out longer, IMO for numerous reasons not the least being the position they have put us to contend going forward and and I truly believe stability is a good thing.
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There is a lot of reason to feel optimistic. I think you are well within the bounds of being reasonable.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Powders
We also have some people around here that act like he is a god. "The Great Creator" lol. He's not a Savior, Martin Luther King, Jesus Christ or the Easter bunny. He's a baseball GM.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
You do realize I call him that just to get under their skin, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_noodles
And he’s done an ok job at it. After 6 years of tearing it down I wouldn’t expect anything less than a “hopeful” middling team with a decent farm. Anything les and he wouldn’t have been extended (I hope).Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_noodles
Is that also why you get personally offended at any opinion other than that?Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
He only spent like 3 years tearing it down (2017-2019).Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
His job wasn't even to tear down the roster when he first got here. He was trying to sign EE to a 4/5 year contract after 2016. He didn't do the best job adding onto the roster after 2016 and did an even terrible job tearing down the MLB roster after. But at the same time did a great job at building the farm while he was tearing down the roster.
How he uses his farm and how he does MLB level acquisitions will be how he's judged going forward.
I don’t think I’ll ever give him a free pass on the terrible tear down/sustain winning confusion/lie. Felt like he wasted 6 years of my jays fan life. Still I agree though, it’s about what he does from here. He’s been gifted a chance to see what he can do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ
It wasn't even 6 years. 2017-2019 obviously weighs down his overall performance given they were pretty bad, but if he continues to perform well going forward, his bad performances get diluted as he peforms goung forward.
2016 felt like very much a waste too. They were focused on the image of winning, but did not make moves to keep us as contenders. 2017&18 were just shameful. Just flat out lying to the fan base.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ
I’ll never get over it.
Regardless let’s see where he goes from here
They made plenty of moves leading up to 2016 and that deadline.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
Sign Happ, resign Estrada, Storen trade, Grilli trade, benoit trade, liriano trade, Upton trade, drafted Biagini, etc.
Not all of them worked out but a lot were good gamble
From Nov 2016 (sign Morales instead of EE) to Nov 2019 (just before Ryu) is majority of the moves that the general fanbase may have issues with.
Wasn’t happ lacava?Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ
Those signings look a lot more like trying to appear to want to win to me. And the results speak for themselves. They certainly weren’t “going for it”.
I’m tired of this old convo though tbh. You know how I feel about those years.
I really don’t think it affects him the way you think it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
thats true Happ signed Nov 25. Atkins was GM since Dec 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
Sure, but if you say you cant get over 22017 to 2019, then no matter what he does all the years after, you wont judge him appropriately.
Man... if he gets me some exciting playoff ball I won’t give a ****.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ
We knowQuote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
Atkins already got us to the playoffs twice...Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
Agree to disagree.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_noodles
Yes, once with AAs team and once when the rules were changed. The second time was like being 4 and getting a participation medal...Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
Atkins made moves in 2016 to help us get into the playoffs.
2020 is a bit of an asterick. The change in playoff spots changed last minutes so moves he made leading up to the start of the season technically wouldnt have been good enough in normal 5 team playoffs.
Fixed it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiderdan22
You mean the 2016 team where had had to revamp the bullpen along with adding Happ and re-signing Estrada? Imagine if AA stuck around and paid Price like he said he wanted to...Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiderdan22
It must be tough being you. You've back yourself so far into a corner that you can't see that Atkins is not the genius you think him to be. So far more of my predictions of how the season was going to go has come true than yours. Let's see...you jumped all over me because I called Ryu (although a good initial signing will be a liability by the time the Jays are competitive) and Pearson fragile flowers...oh look, Merryweather is hurt again and just got transferred to the 60 day...Biggio is showing that sophomore jinx...Jannsen and Tellez are fodder and I hope they shows up some night...the pitchers are thanking Bo for every extra extra pitch they have to throw...Vlad's doing much better!!!! Another bad contract given by Atkins in Tanner Roark (man he has a history of wasting money) is released...Hernandez OPS continues to fall and his war is only 0.1...yes right now Grichuk has better numbers...and we are yet again an inconsistent fledgling 500 team for the wait for it SIXTH YEAR OF THE REBUILD!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
Happ and Estrada were signed by lacava.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
After this year, they'll both have 6 years with the team. If the Jays dont make the playoffs this year, nothing in their resume stands out that puts 1 over the other IMO. As the years go by, Atkins will pass AA as he builds up longevity.
I would say the major difference is that this team is far better setup for long term success than the other. They still need to do it of course, but in every area they seem better suited for sustainability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ
The timelines aren't exact exact but I believe both regimes have had at least 3 years of top 10 farms. We entered 2018-2021 with a top 10 farm. We had top 10 farm entering 2011/2012/2015.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_noodles
Yes. But not nearly as good as the product 6 years into AA.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_noodles
I attribute The major differences between how the team has been run to the under market deals he signed EE and Joey to. Either you trade them for futures or you go for it. His go for it moves were good. Hope for the same from Atkins whenever he wants to pull he trigger. I’m personally not that impressed spending 50mil more than the next bidder to land springer. I need to see some type of winning playoff product before he is in the convo with AA. Multiple championships before he’s in the convo with Gillick.
6 years in and our best player was still brought in by his predecessor. His prospects aren’t living up to the hype yet (still lots of time), and his FA signings (and only decent draft pick in the year after bringing in his own staff) cannot stay healthy.
Still lots of work to do.
If you haven't noticed, they currently are 2nd the the AL East behind the BoSox (who will regress) by 2 games and have the second best Run differential in the AL with all the injuries they have had. What they have been able to due thus far with their injuries and not having a permanent home is pretty great.Quote:
Originally Posted by Spiderdan22
BTW how's AA doing this year with his studs Smyly and Morton? They above .500 yet?
Atkins trying so hard to build through the draft. Can't be done - well unless you are the Dodgers. They are a good model and we should strive to be like them, we are not close to having the same development structure as they do.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
Funny that think I'm an AA guy. I loved most of his trades by felt he never went all in. He got most of a team and never finished the job until he gave the farm away in 2015. He could of/should of had most of those gaps in the roster filled before the season. You don't retool a team like that in the middle of a season and expect it to be sustainable. But, he also didn't think twice make moves because a player was popular either. If the trade bettered the team he made the move. But really, I'm a Gillick guy,Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaotic98
And Boston was down for a year, but come on...how long before a team with the financial resources Boston has and a desire to win stays down for long. Sorry, but Boston is not going anywhere. They may regress a bit this year but will be a force in the East again sooner than later. The Yankees are underperforming right now and will move up. So will Tampa despite trading Snell. Jays are third, maybe fourth in the East if the inconsistent play continues. 500 teams usually fall well out of the playoff picture.
And the amount of injuries are a huge concern. One or two hurt maybe...but half the roster. Perhaps Shatkins could be doing a better job on those physical evaluations? Although I was thrilled Ryu signed in Toronto, why was he relatively cheap considering he was second in the cy young voting the year before? Perhaps he was a ticking time bomb for injuries? He will be a liability moving forward. This trip to the IL is just one of many.
And really? Run differential? Wow. That's grasping at straws. You could beat a team 20-0 one night and lose you next five in closer games and still have a great run differential. But in the end, you are just 1-6.
When can you finally admit that Shatkins has squandered this rebuild from day one and we are now suffering from his inability to manage a team when the rebuild started. He's relying on the draft and most specs flame out. He plan is based on the hope that every spec he draft works out and becomes a potential allstar. To do that he needed to get way more at the beginning of the rebuild than he did. Oh...btw...AA would have.
Definitely not! Too many specs flame out. He is hoping that all of them work out. That leaves us with too many gaps to fill now. And players like Janssen are showing us who they really are now. How long until the next catcher is ready?Quote:
Originally Posted by hanton
I'm aware of that. If AA stuck around that wouldn't of happened as he was adamant on signing Price. That was my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Spiderdan22
Bingo.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_noodles
Some people are just so blinded by hate for Atkins or still have a boner for AA that they refuse to acknowledge this blatant fact. A team full of young players equipped with a loaded farm is a hell of a lot different than a team full of players on the wrong side of 30 with no farm. Not to mention the difference in team salary.
Are people really hating on Atkins after a 16-14 start to the season amidst a barrage of injuries? What a reach...
What a bad post. You’re so much better than that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.