So wait a second then. Does this mean that Atkins now gets credit for Estrada and Happ? Not LaCava?Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
So wait a second then. Does this mean that Atkins now gets credit for Estrada and Happ? Not LaCava?Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
Not sure I get this.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
No way Atkins gets credit for those moves.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
Well according to Chong he orchestrated that off-season. What say you, Chong?Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ
Not really sure what he meant by that. It's wrong though.
Why ask me when you can look it up?Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
When was atkins hired? Didn’t Atkins trade for storen?
If he wasn’t hired in time and it was lacava pulling the strings then the credit goes to lacava for happ and storen.
Atkins made moves after he was hired for 2016.
Granted he made a string of really bad decisions after 2016 leading up to the playoffs, he made moves that were justifiable (Upton, Navarro, etc).
So it’s obvious to everyone that I’m not the one constantly bringing up AA and Atkins early missteps right? Lmao can’t believe we’re still on this subject.
To be fair, this thread is specifically about determining who is better between Atkins and prior GMs.
Not to mention, we are replying to your most recent post about Atkins' moves in 2016.
Fwiw a lotta Braves fans calling for AA’s head today. Failed to make a move at the deadline to address the pitching needs. They feel he’s sitting on prospects too much. Exactly the opposite of what he did here. To be fair, their window is still wide open and you don’t fire the GM after losing in game 7 of the CS when you’re still clearly trending upward. It seems that they give home no credit for the current construction of the team. Most of the core was drafted, signed or traded for by previous regime.
Yes. You and Reed. It’s like 50/50.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
They got Milone but he was a bust.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_noodles
Their pitching was fine going into this series IMO. Their 2 best pitchers started game 6 and 7 and couldn't close it out. The 2 relievers who gave up the 2 runs in 2 innings last night only allowed 4 ER in 40 innings the entire season.
Their hitting wasn't very good though. They got 4 runs the last 2 games. They were 3 for 22 with RISP the last 2 games. That can't happen. Acuna and D'arnaud shat the bed as the 1st and 4th hitter.
I agree. They should be looking to sure up the lineup imo. Darnaud (even when hes hot) shouldn’t be your#4 bitter. A hot darnaud should be extending your lineup, not cleaning it upQuote:
Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ
Well they still need to improve their rotation for next year. Just saying their offense cost them the series.
I think the big thing was not replacing Soroka when he went down. But like I said, firing him would be the wrong move. He’s got something up his sleeve I’m sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ
I’m happy for D’Arnaud though. Hope he can stay healthy now. Universal DH should help him.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
Well they shoulda done that. I just dont think that not replacing him was the reason they lost. They were up 3-1 and their offense went quiet.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_noodles
It's 50% me and 50% tzatziki brigade. If we're being honest.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_noodles
I wonder what he'd give up for Vlad Jr now with the universal DH...Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_noodles
all that is true. Braves were 1 win away from the WS, I wish fans here would lose their **** sometimes as well. Nothing short of a WS appearance is acceptableQuote:
Originally Posted by mike_noodles
Tied with Riccardi only above Gord Ash
What did Ricciardi do that merits equal standing to Atkins? No play offs, terrible drafting and left the team weaker than when he got the job.Quote:
Originally Posted by KingCanada
Had a better record in a harder division than Atkins has ever accomplished. His drafts weren’t that bad at the beginning. Made Toronto into a FA destination. Would have made the playoffs multiple times with the current playoff structure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasky05
Basically - a lot that Atkins hasn’t, in less time.
What has Atkins done that Ricardo, AA, or Gillick didn’t?
How was the division harder than it is now? TO was a free agent destination long before Ricciardi came along. See Jack Morris, Dave Stewart, Paul Molitor, Dave Winfield, Candy Maldonaldo, Roger Clemens, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
How many top ten prospects did Ricciardi draft?
Atkins got is in the playoffs under the old format, Ricciardi never did, so let's not pretend that Ricciardi was a good GM.
I didn't realize that Gillick was part of the discussion and shouldn't be, we all acknowledge he is Jays GOAT GM.
What did Atkins do that JP or AA didn't? Make the playoffs twice, have a top 10 farm system, and a top 5 farm system.
What part of JP's drafting was good?Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
Here's an article I dug up from days gone by:Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
Joe Posnanski, in a Sports Illustrated article, questioned, “Here’s my thing about J.P. Ricciardi, the thing that really baffles the heck out of me: How can someone keep giving out contracts THIS BAD and keep his job and reputation? How? I’m serious. How?”
The bewilderment that some people exhibit over Ricciardi’s job status seems to rival how confused some people have been about Stonehenge over the ages.
I believe that I know the answer to Posnanski’s question.
But, before I get into that, I want to first summarize some of the reasons why J.P. Ricciardi’s job status with the Toronto Blue Jays has perplexed so many people for so long.
Let’s Make a (Bad) Deal
Ricciardi’s track record in his biggest transactions has been horrendous, as discussed in my previous J.P. Ricciardi article.
Moreover, Richard Griffin wrote the following in a Toronto Star article:
“Besides, the GM's track record at trading established players for prospects stinks. Really it does...Here's the clinching stat. Over eight years, just three of the 20 players he received in return are still in the organization—Scott Rolen, Jeremy Accardo, and Brian Wolfe.”
Also, Joe Posnanski, in his aforementioned article, comically summarized Ricciardi’s failures in giving out contracts by using Vernon Wells’ contract as an example:
“This deal, to be honest, is not the sort of thing that leads to a general manager getting fired. It's the sort of thing that leads to entire villages getting pillaged. And that's what I mean about Ricciardi.
"I mean, this contract alone should be enough to put him in the Bad Contract Hall of Fame. But when you look over the whole body of work...he IS the Bad Contract Hall of Fame.
"In fact, really, we should just start referring to bad baseball contracts as ‘Ricciardis’.”
Furthermore, in his latest big transaction, Ricciardi got nothing in return for Alex Rios. Surely a good general manager could have gotten something in return for a two-time All Star and potential five-tool player.
I discussed several ways that the loss of Alex Rios could hurt the Blue Jays in my Alex Rios article, that I wrote shortly before Ricciardi gave him away for nothing. Judging by the play of the Blue Jays after Rios was dumped until now, it appears that I was right.
If J.P. Ricciardi has so terrible a track record with trades and signings, then it must be his financial genius that has kept him on board with the Blue Jays for so long, right? Wrong.
I discussed several ways that Ricciardi has been bad for team revenue on page two of my previous J.P. Ricciardi article.
Hall of Fame baseball writer, Tracy Ringolsby, said the following about Ricciardi’s financial track record, in a Fox Sports article:
“...if the decision is made to move Halladay, why would the man who has created the mess be deemed capable of extracting a quality package in return for the greatest player ever developed in that organization?
"Heck, if it wasn't for the $36.77 million in contracts the Jays have eaten in recent years—including $15 million earlier this month for B.J. Ryan, which incorporates $10 million of the money guaranteed for 2010—the guy who handed out those contracts wouldn't be suggesting that to eliminate the financial pain he has created, the Jays should be eliminating the contract of the one guy under contract who is worth every penny he is being paid.”
If that wasn’t bad enough, the potential for financial disaster greatly increases the longer that Ricciardi remains as the Blue Jays general manager, as discussed on page five of my 2009 Blue Jays Draft article.
I believe that the main reason that Ricciardi’s financial track record doesn’t appear to be even worse, is because he’s the general manager of a team that resides in a city that is hungry for baseball.
On a per capita basis, the numbers indicate that Toronto has about three times more baseball fans than New York, when times are tough. More details about this can be found on page three of my Roy Halladay article.
In fact, we don’t have to guess how Blue Jays fans would react if a good general manager was in place. In the early 1990s, when Pat Gillick was the Blue Jays general manager, they set major league baseball attendance records.
That’s how much money a good general manager can make for the Toronto Blue Jays organization.
In fact, the Blue Jays’ success in the early 1990s likely isn’t the ceiling, since the population has increased since then and, with the demise of the Montreal Expos, there is now no competition for Canadian major league baseball fans.
Draft Dodgers
So, Ricciardi has a dreadful track record with trades, signings, and money. Then, he must have kept his job for so long because he’s been the best in baseball in drafting players, right? Wrong.
While Ricciardi’s overall history of drafting players has been hit and miss, it appears that he’s getting worse as more time passes.
In this year’s draft, Ricciardi failed to sign three of his top four draft picks. I believe that Ricciardi’s presence on the Blue Jays was the main reason for the Blue Jays’ failures in signing draft picks this year, as discussed in my 2009 Blue Jays Draft Article.
Furthermore, Ricciardi’s actions speak volumes about what he thinks about the prospects in his farm system.
If Ricciardi wants to trade arguably the best player in baseball, Roy Halladay, for prospects to restock his farm system, then one would think Ricciardi must believe that his farm system is horrible.
Should He Stay or Should He Go?
Okay, Ricciardi’s track record has been horrible with trades, signings, money and now drafting too.
Then, surely he must be the best in the business at making smaller transactions, like moving players back and forth between the major league team and the minor league teams. That’s how he kept his job for so long, right? Wrong.
Barry Davis, in a Sportsnet.ca article, said the following about Ricciardi’s handling of Jeremy Accardo this season:
“One has to think this is personal. If it's based on numbers it doesn't make sense. If it's based on experience, it also makes no sense.
Accardo is a guy who actually likes being in Toronto and would love to be a part of the future, but as Jim Balsillie can attest to, if someone with "power" doesn't like you, you don't stand a chance.”
That was certainly not the first time that Ricciardi made a move that reeked of a personal vendetta against a player. Another example was discussed in Phil Rogers’ Chicago Tribune article:
“In the spring of 2002, Toronto second baseman Orlando Hudson made a crack about the style of Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi, saying he dressed like a pimp. He quickly found himself in the minor leagues...”
Furthermore, I believe that Ricciardi’s mishandling of players like Casey Janssen and Ricky Romero greatly increases the chances of his players getting seriously injured, as discussed on page four of my previous J.P. Ricciardi article.
I think that says enough about JP.
Been ages since I last posted.
Atm I'd put him on par with Riccardi's level but trending upwards.
To put him above AA he'd need field a team that has a winning record in a season north of 93 wins and pretty much get past the ALCS.
Say what you want with AA gutting the farm but he managed to field a team that had a fantastic run differential, a 0.574 winning percentage in a full season, won the division and made it to the ALCS.
Every other GM has pretty much had a team hover at 0.500 or below.
As for this year i'm not that impressed by a 0.533 winning percentage with a -10 run difference in a shortened down season with an expanded playoffs.
On the same token i'm not going to hold the previous seasons against him as the Jays needed to rebuild.
Imo win the division with a team with a winning percentage close to or over 0.600 in a full season then we can talk
Welcome back.
100%.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampirate
Bump!
Signed consensus top ten FA in back-to-back yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
On the cusp of having a consensus top ten overall prospect
This thread is only going to get better with time. Don’t think I forgot when people laughed at me for saying that Atkins will one day challenge Gillick as the GOAT. I think he’s the consensus #2 Jays GM of all time now.
That would make it 4 years in a row with a consensus top 10 prospect. Pretty impressive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Powders
Still gotta win. But he’s earned the right to see this thing all the way through. So we should be able to see how it all turns out and judge him on that.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
I feel more confident with Atkins at the helm than I have with any GM before him. And it’s not even close.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_noodles
Over Gillick? Ballsy.
I was 4 in 1993Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ
Ah okay that's fair.