After 5 Years Is Ross Atkins the 2nd Best GM in Blue Jays History?

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Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3

Pretty hard to address the core when they're all over 30 and/or making north of 20 mil a year. All thanks to this guy who you seem to think was an amazing GM lol.

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Hard for you. Hard for Atkins. Not hard for GM’s who have experience running contending teams.

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Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3

Pretty hard to address the core when they're all over 30 and/or making north of 20 mil a year. All thanks to this guy who you seem to think was an amazing GM lol.

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But wait. Are you saying Alford, SRF, Greene, tellez etc. Had no trade value in the offseason 2016? Or just that Atkins made a smart decision holding onto them?

Before you reply - remember that Ben Zobrist was offered 1 for 1 tellez a few months prior. He was our 5th ranked prospect in 2016, lower in 2015.

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

But wait. Are you saying Alford, SRF, Greene, tellez etc. Had no trade value in the offseason 2016? Or just that Atkins made a smart decision holding onto them?

Before you reply - remember that Ben Zobrist was offered 1 for 1 tellez a few months prior. He was our 5th ranked prospect in 2016, lower in 2015.

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Just what we needed. A 35 year old Ben Zobrist in the 1st year of a 4 year 56 million dollar deal. I guess that means Tellez had value?

Here comes the pivot!

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

But wait. Are you saying Alford, SRF, Greene, tellez etc. Had no trade value in the offseason 2016? Or just that Atkins made a smart decision holding onto them?

Before you reply - remember that Ben Zobrist was offered 1 for 1 tellez a few months prior. He was our 5th ranked prospect in 2016, lower in 2015.

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Zobrist was great but I wouldnt have made that trade given he was a rental and was a FA in the offseason. Still won WS MVP so one of those players providing value for 2 years before being bad 2 years after (though he was a good player in 2016 and 2018 and bad in 2017 and 2019).

Oh my bad. A 35 year old rental lol.

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Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3

Oh my bad. A 35 year old rental lol.

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Yeah you don’t wish Greene or Alford or SRF were moved for a rental? A core addition? K. Well gj on grilli I guess lol.
What a stud.

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

Yeah you don’t wish Greene or Alford or SRF were moved for a rental? A core addition? K. Well gj on grilli I guess lol.
What a stud.

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Lol there’s that pivot.

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

But wait. Are you saying Alford, SRF, Greene, tellez etc. Had no trade value in the offseason 2016? Or just that Atkins made a smart decision holding onto them?

Before you reply - remember that Ben Zobrist was offered 1 for 1 tellez a few months prior. He was our 5th ranked prospect in 2016, lower in 2015.

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

Yeah you don’t wish Greene or Alford or SRF were moved for a rental? A core addition? K. Well gj on grilli I guess lol.
What a stud.

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Where’s the pivot? ^^^

Really grasping at straws. Your trolling skills are not as sharp as they once were.

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

Where’s the pivot? ^^^

Really grasping at straws. Your trolling skills are not as sharp as they once were.

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I disagree.

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Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3

I disagree.

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Well at least you are still the master at avoiding questions and calling yourself the “winner” lol.

Never grow up Reed! Living in never never land

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

Well at least you are still the master at avoiding questions and calling yourself the “winner” lol.

Never grow up Reed! Living in never never land

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Okay

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

Imo. - you give that team to a competent GM and we are contenders right now. Look at the team Theo inherited with the Cubs. A MUCH worse situation. But he had the balls to tear it down and built a tsunami of top specs on the same timeline.
I think he had 2 or 3 assets? And he turned all of them into contributors for their championship run.

This slow trickle of specs and over paying to fill spots in FA is a very tough way to build a contender. Say we are a contender next year - how do you then develop the specs at the ML level? A contender shouldn’t have question marks starting. A contender cannot give away 1500 AB’s to see what we have in a few guys.

I’m not saying he can’t find a way, it’s just not how I would have liked it to be done. I wish him luck because I want a damn parade!

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Sure but Theo may be the best GM of all time so that's really an unfair comparison in my opinion. He was probably given the OK to tear the club down, something I'm.not entirely certain Shatkins were afforded. Rogers wanted butts in the seats and the best way to do that was patching together a rotation to go with all the aging veterans.

As for overpaying for FA, what route do you expect them to take. Trade away all the specs for 30+ year old players who are going to be expensive? That's a good way to get us in the hole AA got us in...no farm and a bunch of old overpriced veterans. I'd much rather spend only money (and a comp pick) and sign a FA. And to be fair, the Ryu deal looks good, maybe a year to long but that's ok. The Semien deal is a steal and the Springer deal is still too early to be judged but any time you have a chance to get the best hitter available on the FA market...you do it. I really have a hard time understanding your line of thinking on this one.

Plenty of contenders have question marks starting. You obviously don't want too many but just take a look at the Rays line up from last year and if we are a contender next year, I'm not really sure how many question marks(prospects we will have in the every day line up). Maybe Manoah, SWR and Martin but I fully expect Manoah and probably SWR to get a cup of coffee this year. It's not ideal, but I'd take either one of them.on a contenderover guys like Dickey or Kevin Pillar. But that's just me.

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Originally Posted by Kenny Powders

Sure but Theo may be the best GM of all time so that's really an unfair comparison in my opinion. He was probably given the OK to tear the club down, something I'm.not entirely certain Shatkins were afforded. Rogers wanted butts in the seats and the best way to do that was patching together a rotation to go with all the aging veterans.

As for overpaying for FA, what route do you expect them to take. Trade away all the specs for 30+ year old players who are going to be expensive? That's a good way to get us in the hole AA got us in...no farm and a bunch of old overpriced veterans. I'd much rather spend only money (and a comp pick) and sign a FA. And to be fair, the Ryu deal looks good, maybe a year to long but that's ok. The Semien deal is a steal and the Springer deal is still too early to be judged but any time you have a chance to get the best hitter available on the FA market...you do it. I really have a hard time understanding your line of thinking on this one.

Plenty of contenders have question marks starting. You obviously don't want too many but just take a look at the Rays line up from last year and if we are a contender next year, I'm not really sure how many question marks(prospects we will have in the every day line up). Maybe Manoah, SWR and Martin but I fully expect Manoah and probably SWR to get a cup of coffee this year. It's not ideal, but I'd take either one of them.on a contenderover guys like Dickey or Kevin Pillar. But that's just me.

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I think you are taking what I’m saying out of context. I would have signed ryu, and I’m the guy that was saying all offseason “springer or bust”.

But imo it isn’t an amazing job by a GM to overpay by 50% from the next bidder. If Atkins gets bonus points for anything in that - it’s convincing Rogers to spend that money. I’m not saying Atkins ****ed up signing those guys - just giving due credit where credit is due.

On the whole though - I’m just saying “I’m not saying he can’t find a way, it’s just not how I would have liked it to be done”. Which I think is fair especially when providing examples of different methods that I would have preferred, and explanations of why I would have preferred them.

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Originally Posted by ChongInc.

I think you are taking what I’m saying out of context. I would have signed ryu, and I’m the guy that was saying all offseason “springer or bust”.

But imo it isn’t an amazing job by a GM to overpay by 50% from the next bidder. If Atkins gets bonus points for anything in that - it’s convincing Rogers to spend that money. I’m not saying Atkins ****ed up signing those guys - just giving due credit where credit is due.

On the whole though - I’m just saying “I’m not saying he can’t find a way, it’s just not how I would have liked it to be done”. Which I think is fair especially when providing examples of different methods that I would have preferred, and explanations of why I would have preferred them.

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Sure, but I think we disagree on the best way to build a contender. I'm in the boat of develop your prospects and compliment them FA and not in the boat of trading prospects for proven MLB players. I get that's just a difference of opinion but I would rather sign George Springer and lose a pick then trade a boatload of specs for him, but that's just me.

You really didn't provide examples. You provided one example that was undertaken by the best GM of this generation and potentially of all time. I mean, the Blue Jays under the previous FO is an example of a failed attempt at reading the farm for overaged and overpriced players and not getting to the promise land.

Not really following your comment about having to pay by 50% over the next bidder. From what I read, the Mets offered 6/120 while we offered 6/150. When you take into account the taxes and having to cross the border on the reg, its probably not that much different. And I disagree that Atkins doesn't deserve credit for signing guys like Ryu, Springer and even Semien. When was the last time a FA of that magnitude was signed by the Jays? Burnett? Clemens? I mean that was always the knock on the Jays, they couldn't land big FA. They landed arguably the second best pitcher and best hitter in back to back years. And while you credit Rogers for allowing him to spend the money, he's the one who got the organization in this spot by maintaining excellent payroll flexibility, something they still have even after signing Springer and Ryu.

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Originally Posted by Kenny Powders

Sure, but I think we disagree on the best way to build a contender. I'm in the boat of develop your prospects and compliment them FA and not in the boat of trading prospects for proven MLB players. I get that's just a difference of opinion but I would rather sign George Springer and lose a pick then trade a boatload of specs for him, but that's just me.

You really didn't provide examples. You provided one example that was undertaken by the best GM of this generation and potentially of all time. I mean, the Blue Jays under the previous FO is an example of a failed attempt at reading the farm for overaged and overpriced players and not getting to the promise land.

Not really following your comment about having to pay by 50% over the next bidder. From what I read, the Mets offered 6/120 while we offered 6/150. When you take into account the taxes and having to cross the border on the reg, its probably not that much different. And I disagree that Atkins doesn't deserve credit for signing guys like Ryu, Springer and even Semien. When was the last time a FA of that magnitude was signed by the Jays? Burnett? Clemens? I mean that was always the knock on the Jays, they couldn't land big FA. They landed arguably the second best pitcher and best hitter in back to back years. And while you credit Rogers for allowing him to spend the money, he's the one who got the organization in this spot by maintaining excellent payroll flexibility, something they still have even after signing Springer and Ryu.

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Well I only minimized the credit for signing springer. My only critisizim for signing Ryu has been his age. Doesn’t align, but at least it’s a short term commitment.

Also never suggested taking the AA approach with this rebuild - unless you’re referring to trading some meh prospects in the top 100 to bolster our playoff run in 2016. Definitely I think that should have been done and I don’t understand the argument against it. Perhaps you can elaborate on that because I don’t understand why (in hindsight) you would be against that. Unless you loved the prospects for some reason.

I can give more examples of complete tear downs leading to great teams with extended windows if you think only Epstein has the ability to do it:
Houston
TB
Cubs
Royals

The rangers, cards, and Indians did it fairly recently too, though the rangers and Indians couldn’t sustain it or win a championship.

“ Following a disappointing 2010 season, the Cleveland Indians missed the playoffs three years in a row. General Manager Mark Shapiro moved up to Vice President, and Chris Antonetti came in as the new GM.

The Indians went in a new direction, trading Shin-Shoo Choo for Trevor Bauer and Bryan Shaw; calling up prospects such as Carlos Santana, Michael Brantley, and Carlos Carrasco; and making smart draft picks such as Francisco Lindor, Tyler Naquin, Clint Frazier, Bradley Zimmer, and Justus Sheffield. Cleveland put together one of the best teams in baseball in 2016. They seem set to be a powerhouse for years to come.”