What's Cashman's winning percentage?Quote:
Originally Posted by hanton
I wouldn't rate him as a top GM (based on his winning percentage) with the cash assets he's able to throw out yearly... he's been mediocre at best.
What's Cashman's winning percentage?Quote:
Originally Posted by hanton
I wouldn't rate him as a top GM (based on his winning percentage) with the cash assets he's able to throw out yearly... he's been mediocre at best.
fine what criteria are you using to rate him as the 2nd best GM in Blue Jays history? Cashman is .588Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaotic98
When was Cashman the Jays GM working with a limited payroll?Quote:
Originally Posted by hanton
Atkins took an aging team who the fans expected to contend, patchworked into a play-off team in 2016, then gutted it and rebuilt it with smart drafting and development, smart trades, and look at where we are now. We're in a great position moving into 2021 and beyond.
He brought us 2 play-off appearances in 5 years. Tell me who, outside of Gillick, did a better job and how you justify your assessment.
Justify what? it's not my threadQuote:
Originally Posted by Sasky05
Really. that's your argument. Atkins did a complete teardown, and rebuild in less than 3 years, we're now in a competitive situation, with tons of payroll flexibility, (the ghosts of AA's payroll), and we've graduated high potential players to the MLB roster.Quote:
Originally Posted by hanton
If we lose 95 games next year and all of our kids struggle, you might have an argument, but to use winning percentage after Atkins just completed a rebuild seems like a fools errand.
Keep in mind the bar isn't set high in terms of great GMs we have had. If we rated them as great, then it's just Gillick. I'm not sure Philly fans will feel the same way about his time there.Quote:
Originally Posted by hanton
In terms of my criteria for a Blue Jays' GM, let me first say I look at the MLB and Jays like a European soccer league (EPL for example) until a real league wide salary cap is implemented. The Jays are traditionally a mid tier level team, minus the late 80s and early 90s where they out spent and beat most.
For me, for a Jays GM to be successful he(she) needs to A) develop home grown young talent (from drafts or trades) B) Have good asset management: in trades and team payroll C) long term success: both in team wins and in asset management, and D) have some luck.
Our team success isn't just dependent on how good our roster is, but how bad/unfortunate the Yankees/Red Sox are with injuries and bad contracts for our success in the AL East based on their traditional $200 million payrolls. Not to mention Tampa, seems to excel yearly at my aforementioned criteria. Therefore, our GMs needs to be great at A and B above to see winning successes.
JP did well to draft and develop talent, was mediocre in trades, terrible in acquiring FAs. AA was boom or bust in trades, terrible at developing homegrown talent, he signed a few top FAs, but to contracts that didn't age well, and had a lot of luck in how JB and EE turned their careers around and mediocre Boston, Yankee and Tampa teams. Let's not forget, based on the age of that 2015 team, the poorly aging contracts/FA contracts and the barren farm system, that team was built as a boom or bust, not as a dynasty for multiple years of success.
With Atkins, thus far he has developed talent well, has managed his assets in trades and fiscally well. I still don't like Grich's deal, but it aged better this year and I can live with Roark's 2 year deal. We can argue about the timing of his JD deal, but I think that has more to do with Rogers trying to fool season ticket holders than him not wanting to deal JD earlier, then his injury.
He has made the playoffs twice, by lucking out with 8 teams this year. He has yet to make a big trade for a big name player, but Ryu is a bigger FA signing we have had since the days of Gillick (or Ash if we think about a then washed up non PED Clemens).
Lastly, he has potentially set up this team for long term success unless he mismanages his assets. Again his tenure cannot be truly evaluated until he leaves to remove bias from it, *unless he wins a championship.
Aren't you using the .483 winning % to suggest Atkins isn't a good GM? I'd like to see you justify your opinion, unless you can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by hanton
You must be new here, he can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasky05
He'll post stuff like "I don't need to defend anything, it's not my thread", but yet... He'll still POST in the GD thread no problem.
Different topic, same ********.
Back on topic, this is a very tough question. Maybe I misremember but why is Ricciardi getting so much love? I don't remember that era being very good at all.... To me it's between AA and Atkins, and I'm not even that big of a fan of AA but he did a lot of good work. He had a DD like approach that didn't pan out and outside the Dickey trade (which was awful), a lot of his deals were made with going for it in mind, which I can certainly respect. He did clear out the cupboards to an extent but mostly kept his top specs and his biggest flaw was he couldn't draft. And if he did hit on the draft, they went unsigned and stared for another team instead (Nola comes to mind but I know there's more). AA is the type of guy who's going to get so much better as he gets older with more experience. Look at the Braves now, (though he inherited that team and seems like he still can't draft) that's a team that he'll command for the next decade. Unfortunately here, so many wasted first round picks (Deck McGuire lol) but I did like his aggressive trade mindset and trying to get the team over the hump. He's smart and I still would have done that Tulo trade, at the time it looked so good even if it completely backfired. Obviously it's nice to have 20/20 hindsight but way too many teams do nothing and just expect to compete, Alex isn't one of those GMs.
Going back to the original question (leave me alone it's early), is Atkins the second best GM? I think it's impossible to say for another few years yet but he absolutely has potential to be. Bichette, Pearson etc all look like stars, he broke through with a Boras client and even got him for a very reasonable salary. The farm is pretty stacked as well, lots of great draft picks and certainly could see a few players from there making an impact still. Prospects they have (like Austin Martin) is just gravy on top and while he fell into their laps, they didn't try to out smart themselves and go another direction or be too cute cause they "wanted a pitcher" or some other nonsense. Right now, I'd give a slight edge to AA as the second best GM with this year or next having the potential to really push Atkins over the top. He's come a long way.... fans really mistreated him, were downright incompetent and impatient, I was always rooting for the guy to turn the team around and I'm glad he had the time to show that he could. We are in very good shape but still young and hard to know exactly how good guys like Hernandez and Vlad really are. I think we'll be fine but that's why they play the games...
What about just this season? You are aware that the team is rebuilding, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by hanton
That's fair. There is still room for a lot to go wrong but I have faith that won't happen. AA was some sort of ninja who made these huge deals out of nowhere. Atkins literally tells you what the plan is and then plays it out in the most conservative way possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaotic98
Obviously a time will come where he's going to have to take a risk (100+ million dollar contracts to hand out or trading a top 5 prospect) but so far he's managed to build a solid foundation without having to do either of the above.
hanton just gets upset whenever Atkins gets praise. Be careful what you say to him though. He reported me for calling him a child once :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by StayOnBoard
I think people were just pointing out that if it were a 16 team post season then JP would've made it a few times. AA definitely made trades with going for it in mind and it was exciting as hell. Had that 2015 team won the WS then all would be forgiven but the only problem is they didn't. His style was reckless and completely unsustainable unless you keep doing it over and over. Sold the farm in 2012, took on massive deals (Beuhrle and Reyes), got a supposed Cy Young winner then you fast forward to 2015 where again he sold the farm, took on massive deals while also handing out massive deals this time as well. I really mean it when I say this, if he took that 5 year deal in 2015 the team would be in absolute shambles right now. AA left a hero before he could die a villain.
I understand your logic in still having AA as second, but I still disagree lol. AA got us to the post season and left us with a roster of old guys. Atkins just got us to the post season and the roster is full of guys who are under 25. Austin Martin is also a Boras client btw. Which 100% means that if AA were still GM he wouldn't have drafted him because of the Boras boycott. I just have the utmost confidence in this team moving forward. Atkins literally started from the ground up and so far it's working out incredibly well. We still do have to see how it all pans out though.
Good ol' hanton. Always runs away when he gets pressed.Quote:
Originally Posted by hanton
Really good post.Quote:
Originally Posted by StayOnBoard
Atkins brought us the 2020 play-off appearance but only after the expanded format due to the 60 game shortened season, there's a good chance we don't make the post season otherwise. 2016 was AA's team.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasky05
He inhereted a WS contender but Atkins had still make moves to make sure we made the 2016 playoffs.