And that's fair, and I agree. I definitely agree with the idea that if we aren't in next year, there should be some heat somewhere, including both Atkins and Montoyo.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
And that's fair, and I agree. I definitely agree with the idea that if we aren't in next year, there should be some heat somewhere, including both Atkins and Montoyo.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
I didn’t even consider it until you guys brought it up, but I think Atkins may keep montoyo as a safety net. If we miss the playoffs again he fires montoyo and secures himself another year of attempting to make the playoffs.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_noodles
I think if we had a more self assured GM with a good track record then montoyo would be gone this offseason 100%.
If you cut through the drama and look at the facts, he is right about some big things here. Hard to see Atkins pulling off all those prerequisites to making this team a contender in 1 offseason.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_noodles
Enlighten me...Quote:
Originally Posted by mike_noodles
Assuming we miss the playoffs, Montoyo needs to go in the offseason.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
I agree. I feel they will give him a short leash next season though.Quote:
Originally Posted by LechWalesa
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I don't see the point in waiting. Ross just re-upped with a five year deal. I'm positive that alone gives him 2-3 years to get us into the postseason
I think the missteps he’s made along the way will be highlighted if he misses the playoffs again. Wing cures all, but without it people will look again how we got here.Quote:
Originally Posted by LechWalesa
I thought Ross' contract expires before this season and this was his 1st year. Or was that Shapiro?
This is kinda silly though because they didn't really miss the post season before.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
They made the playoffs after AA left then started to rebuild and then made the playoffs again (technically) last year. (even though yes, they really didn't earn it, just kinda were in a fortunate position).
Both Sharp and Ross are signed for the long haul.
I think this season while the jays are trending upwards there are not sky high expectations, however next season and then on will tell us how things will play out as there will be higher expectations and people will be expecting to make the playoffs, especially with the moves most recently made.
If the Jays flounder around .500 like so many Jays teams have post Gillick then yeah.
Yeah that’s what I was referring to. Should have been more clear. Imo it would be absurd to release him this offseason, but if we miss again next season then I would want to bring in a closer. If we win then all of the mistakes get forgiven. If we miss again the the focus goes on why me are missing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampirate
To be honest, this is one of those Jays season where people are going to scratch their heads and wonder how they didn't make the playoffs (it's still a long shot they get in). A monster offense and now a top 10 pitching staff and they are still easily underperforming their run differential.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
I don't really think it's that much of a long shot. Yankees SP sucks and now Cole is out for at least two starts and the Sox have a tough schedule with a lot of important players on Covid-19 while we have a relatively easier schedule.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampirate
If we win tonight and Boston wins, we are 1.5 GB of the second wild card and 2.0 GB the first wild card. If we win and the Sox lose, we are 1.5 GB of the first wild card and 1.0 GB second. Granted, we have to win the games in hand but it seems we control our own destiny
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It’s the glue. We need the glue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampirate
In this case it’s a BP.
I’m riding this wave of optimism too, but it’s hard to come back. We need all the teams around us to be worse so I’m not holding my breath. Would be easier if we were going for the division and only needed to worry about the team ahead of us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Powders
I honestly feel we are in the best position of the 5 teams fighting for the two wildcard spots. Boston has a ton of guys on COVID protocol ATM and have a tough schedule and the Yankees are down their ace for at least a start or two and if we think our BP has some question marks, we shouldn't look at theirs with any sort admiration. Granted, a few weeks ago we looked dead in the water and that could happen again but as long as we get the SP and hitting we've been getting the last few weeks, I don't see any reason why we wouldn't be hosting the WC gameQuote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
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Yeah I just try not to get too crazy with baseball. So much luck. It’s such a .500 sport.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Powders
When I first started watching baseball I thought batting average was like 90% luck until I watched ichiro.
I’m so ready for some playoff baseball though. Haven’t felt true baseball excitement/anxiety since 2015.
I swear it seems like it's forever with rare exceptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
Orioles Suck
Jays .500 team
Rays, Yankees, Red Sox musical chairs on the other 3 positions.
It always felt like no matter what happened, the Jays would either be a bit above or a bit below .500.
MLB needs to realign divisions, revise schedules and expand playoffs. Got frustrated whenever we missed the playoffs in the 2000s despite having some pretty good teams but we faced Boston/Yankees (when they were spending big money) so much that it affected our record just by a few games.
Darth Atkins is on his way to becoming the #1 GM soon enough. #2 is a no brainer at this point.
I agree, AA gave us the all-world Vladdy, but the rest of the roster is Atkins construction, when the expected w/l says we should have 86 wins, that's an elite team. Too bad we gave away so many games this season. Nice 5 spot in the first to start todayQuote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
If they make the playoffs this year, then he should probably be 2nd. If we dont then its probably still arguable given he wpuldnt have much separating him from other GMs.
Making the playoffs in 3/6 years is better than any GM in Jays history. Just saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ
While the Jays overall do not have much of a celebrated history in accolades, the #1 GM blows away any of the others by a landmile.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
If Atkins comes anywhere close to Pat Gillick, he'll be so far ahead of AA it isn't even funny.
This is how far Gillick is ahead of pretty much every Blue Jays GM. (Gillick is also arguably in front of Masai as well)
Atkins needs to win 3 World Series as a Blue Jays GM to be the best Blue Jays GM of all time. A feat I do hope he accomplishes of course.
Right away i'll give him credit he's ahead of Gord Ash and most likely J.P. Ricciardi as well.
However the jump from JP to AA is massive and the jump from AA to Gillick is even more massive.
It’s not only the current roster. It’s also the farm that manages to stay at an elite level after prospects continuously get plucked from it. The revamping of the player development department was huge and has paid massive dividends. Much like how Masai created the 905 with the Raps. It’s a good thing Atkins/Shapiro immediately focused on that in 2016 as opposed to keeping an aging team alive. It’s a big part of why the team is as good as it is now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasky05
I’m curious, what puts AA ahead of Atkins? He had no long term plans, went balls to the wall for 1 exciting playoff run then left.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampirate
The most wins in a season since 1993 with 93 wins, a division banner (not like the NBA, division banners in the MLB hold weight) and actually having that same team get to the ALCS.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
Essentially how much post season success will Atkins teams have and how convincingly can they make the post season, can they win 100 games?
Keep in mind the 2016 Jays were pretty much AA's team still and last years team got in like it was the NBA playoffs. I however don't hold the seasons in-between against him though.
If Atkins builds a team that wins 94+ wins, wins the division and gets to the ALCS, he'll outdo what AA did in one season. It's honestly really not that big of a feat.
If Atkins builds a team that makes the World Series he's automatically the #2 Blue Jays GM no question.
It's all about how much games you win and ultimately post season success.
Yea definitely need WS to supplant Pat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampirate
JP, Alex, Gord and Ross all have roughly the same number of years and all have a total record pretty similar though given the playoff appearances, AA and Atkins are ahead.
Depending on who you ask, theyll probably give you different reason as to why 1 is better than the other at this point. If we dont make the playoffs, there isnt much separating AA and Atkins (6 years each with similar record). Some may put weight on the playoff appearance last year but I dont usually hold much weight for most things that happened that year given the circumstances).
Atkins made the ALCS in 2016 after re-tooling the BP and dealing Hutch for Liriano which ended up being a huge boost to the rotation. Bautista and Tulo struggled while Stroman pitched like trash. Russell Martin lost the ability to throw runners out. Sanchez, Estrada and Happ were key pieces in that rotation. 2 of them wouldn’t have been there if AA had his way and retained David Price. EE, JD, Sanchez and Osuna were excellent. If Atkins didn’t fix that team up there’s no way they get the WC that year.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampirate
Sure, AA’s team got 93 wins but it came at the cost of taking on and handing out massive deals along with selling the farm for rentals. Atkins has handed out 2 big deals with one of them (Ryu) being a massive underpay for an ace. He’s traded some big name prospects without having to gut the farm.
In the end it’s a matter of opinion but Atkins has this team set up to compete for years upon years. By the time AA got his 93 win season the window was already closing. That’s why I put Atkins way ahead of AA. If AA got the WS in 2015 then he’d be ahead but the gamble didn’t pay off and then he ran away.
It's all about results really, AA has easily created the best team since Pat.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
However in the grand scope of things 93 wins and a trip to the ALCS isn't really that high of a bar to get to, it just is when you compare it with JP and Ash.
I'll say this though, as long as Atkins doesn't screw things up he's on path to being #2. The latest deadline moves will be interesting to view in hindsight for a couple of seasons down the road.
As for AA what he taketh away (Thor) he giveth back (Vlad Jr), and honestly were at a point i'd easily rather have Vlad than Thor.
One thing is with your star players, pitching wins games, but pitchers can get injured much easier than every day players. It's just the nature of putting so much torque on your arm.
At this point in time yeah, I’d def prefer Vlad over Thor. It’s just that if we had Thor in 2015 then we probably have a WS banner hanging.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vampirate
Estrada and happ were signed by lacava.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
None of the specs traded away at the 15 deadline amounted to very much.
Wonder what AA could have accomplished if he started with a Vlad and great scouting/development/prospect-hype-machine…
I suppose he walked into a similar situation to that with the Braves and nothing to brag about yet other than some of the best extensions in baseball.
From here on out - if Atkins wins a championship before AA then there would be no question who’s the better team builder overall.
If the jays make the playoffs (winning the wild card game) this season then I’d say Atkins and AA’s tenures with the jays are about equal. Only a championship would put him over AA this post season in my mind.
If we are in the wild card game next season then then still equal imo, but winning the division would be enough for me to give Atkins the nod.
Winning a championship solves the problem pretty easily. Do it Atkins!
I’m aware of the Estrada and Happ signings being done by LaCava. My point being was they weren’t AA moves. If AA had his way he would’ve kept Price which pretty much guarantees the 2016 team doesn’t make the playoffs. Happ and Estrada were critical pieces on that team.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
Atkins had a 16 year old Vladdy and that’s about it. I don’t know of this scouting and development department you speak of? Can you please give some details on it? Before Gil Kim was hired as the Director of Player Development the Blue Jays had nobody in that position. Just in case you forgot, Kim was hired just a couple months after Shapiro and Atkins took the reigns. It was part of their front office overhaul that focused on the Jays complete lack of player development.
Well that’s a hypothetical fact if I’ve ever heard one.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
It was pretty well covered around the time. But hey, have it your way.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
The only coverage of it was a single line quote of “I probably would have made an offer” to price.Quote:
Originally Posted by R. Johnson#3
The idea that AA would have kept Price and using that against him is a pretty bad hypothetical.
If AA resigned, he still has to report to Shapiro and Shapiro made it clear that there weren't looking to add Price at such a contract goven budget restrainsts. That suddenly doesnt change if it was AA instead of Atkins (especially since Price signed his contract the day after Atkins became the GM). Even if AA wanted to make a contract, he wouldnt have ever signed him since it wouldnt have passed Shapiro or Rogers.
https://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2016/...sta-floyd.html
Agreed. They simply didn’t have the budget for it. Maybe a low ball offer or a short term offer at best. No one was beating the Sox for price.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ
Whatever helps you sleep at night.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChongInc.
What about when Price claimed that he understood why the Jays didn’t sign him but if AA was still around it would’ve “hurt”?Quote:
Originally Posted by Raps18-19 Champ