This is why they kneel

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Originally Posted by valade16

First Bolded: you switched the wording from discriminatory to racist just now. Why? Yes, stop and frisk in the abstract is not a racist or discriminatory policy, but if it is used to be racist or discriminatory it can then become one. Much like how a noose is not by itself racist but when used to hang a black person for being black it can become racist.

Second: But it is indeed very possible to do so without realizing it. It seems as if you’re saying any pattern or habit you do is entirely a conscious decision. That is absolute lunacy.

Third: Way to conflate an act like flying a plane into a building with voting lol. You seem to believe every decision in a person’s day to day routine carries the same weight, or that people put as much conscious thought into which city councilmen they’ll vote for as they do on whether to commit suicide as a martyr in a terrorist attack. This is lunacy

Fourth: If your argument is that black people get pulled over more because they simply speed more well you fell right into the circular logic trap to justify it. You also never answered why less evidence was used on average to conduct searches of black people.

Again, I don’t know how else to explain this: you don’t know anything about psychology. You are the very definition of ignorance if you honestly believe no one has ever acted out of a subconscious thought or acted upon one. It’s lunacy.

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1) For hundreds of years, nooses were used to hang black people. In that way, they were used most likely with racist intent. However, nooses still have other practical uses that have nothing to do with race or racism. There was the “noose” in the park which a politician assumed was some type of hate crime. As it turns out, the “noose” was an exercise tool used by a black man. There was also the issue with NASCAR and a “noose” being found in the garage of a black driver. Thing is, nooses are used all the time in garages to close the doors when closing up. My point is, it’s foolish to define an object alone as racist, especially when those objects have other non racist purposes. Racism requires intent to discriminate or harm another race.

2) No I’m not saying any habit needs to be conscious. I’m saying for it to be racism, the belief had to be a conscious choice at some point. If a store employee subconsciously interacts with black customers to scope them out, at some point, the racist, conscious thought that blacks people are likely to shoplift has crossed their mind. If a store employee approached only black customers 100 times, yes some of those occasions may have been subconscious, but that pattern was built on a conscious racist thought,

4) My argument isn’t that black people get pulled over more cause only black people speed. My argument is we don’t know that at the given time there was a choice between black and white speeders for the officer. It’s a major assumption. The only way to prove your premise is to track the demographics of that stretch of road to show how many black people traveled on that stretch of road and how many white people did the same. The pullover statistics should be in line with those demographics.

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

For my grandmother it probably had something to do with her not respecting her mother as a homemaker/mother. She would always tell stories about how her and her five brother and sisters took care of each other. In her mind, it was probably easier to put this on all Irish than accepting the fact that her mom was crappy. I’d say the same is true of black people who hate black people. More than likely something negative happened to them in their life involving another black person. My dad worked with a black guy who hated black people. He’d stop by every now and then and sit and chat with my dad. He’d go on and on about nword this and nword that. One day he told us the story that made it all make sense. When he was 20 years old, a group of black kids jumped him and stole his wallet. While hating a race for the actions of a few is illogical, it makes sense at least.

The point of this is that it’s all a conscious decision. .

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lol, your entire first paragraph describes subconscious thinking driving conscious actions.

So, thank you for illustrating my point.

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

F. I’d say the same about your friend on a plane. Given recent history, this is a natural thought. There was no harm in her thought. A few years ago, my ex wife and I took my daughter into DC on a train. While sitting on the train waiting for it to debark, I noticed 4 middle eastern men separately board the train and sit in different sections of the car. There where other factors that contributed to my suspicions such as they all had similar backpacks. This was obviously just a false alarm on my part but I still told my daughter that if anything weird started happening to get behind me and crouch down behind this provider. I didn’t inform her about my direct suspicion, I used the phrases “weird” or “dangerous.” Anyway, this isn’t my subconscious playing with me and it wasn’t for your friend either. It’s a conscious decision based on relevant data.

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No, you (and me) have been subconsciously programmed to think those middle eastern men might be potential terrorists.

I think your definition of conscious and subconscious might be a little off...

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Originally Posted by valade16

I wonder what Joey thinks the term “fight or flight” means. I bet he genuinely believes in that moment people make a conscious decision on whether to run or fight.

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This actually makes my overall point.

If we put a white person in a fight or flight situation on a daily basis, half the time in an altercation with black people and half the time with white people and the person subconsciously chose to “fight or flight” down the same racial lines each time, while that decision may be subconscious, there in some type conscious belief supporting that behavior. If they choose to fight, perhaps they believe they could get away with killing a blank person. Or if they flight, perhaps they believe the black person is too dangerous.

Look at the Abery case. When Abery approached the guy with the gun, perhaps the guy subconsciously shot Abery. But there were obvious conscious decisions based on racist beliefs which lead to that subconscious decision to fire the gun.

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

This actually makes my overall point.

If we put a white person in a fight or flight situation on a daily basis, half the time in an altercation with black people and half the time with white people and the person subconsciously chose to “fight or flight” down the same racial lines each time, while that decision may be subconscious, there in some type conscious belief supporting that behavior. If they choose to fight, perhaps they believe they could get away with killing a blank person. Or if they flight, perhaps they believe the black person is too dangerous.

Look at the Abery case. When Abery approached the guy with the gun, perhaps the guy subconsciously shot Abery. But there were obvious conscious decisions based on racist beliefs which lead to that subconscious decision to fire the gun.

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The decision to fire the fun was conscious. The reasoning behind that decision was probably some conscious and a lot subconscious.

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Originally Posted by nastynice

No, you (and me) have been subconsciously programmed to think those middle eastern men might be potential terrorists.

I think your definition of conscious and subconscious might be a little off...

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I would agree with you if I only based my suspicion on the fact that they were middle eastern men. But several factors contributed to my thoughts. I even considered my subconscious perhaps playing a trick on me. I considered that we were traveling to DC, which would be a high target for terrorists. I considered where they sat in the train car. Two in the front, two in the back, one on either side. I considered that they each had similar backpacks and how they were dressed casually during the middle of the work week. This wasn’t my subconscious being programmed to believe middle eastern men are terrorists. It was much more entailed than that.

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

This actually makes my overall point.

If we put a white person in a fight or flight situation on a daily basis, half the time in an altercation with black people and half the time with white people and the person subconsciously chose to “fight or flight” down the same racial lines each time, while that decision may be subconscious, there in some type conscious belief supporting that behavior. If they choose to fight, perhaps they believe they could get away with killing a blank person. Or if they flight, perhaps they believe the black person is too dangerous.

Look at the Abery case. When Abery approached the guy with the gun, perhaps the guy subconsciously shot Abery. But there were obvious conscious decisions based on racist beliefs which lead to that subconscious decision to fire the gun.

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Of course there’s conscious thoughts that dictate subconscious behavior, just as subconscious dictates conscious behavior.

Do you think every single decision someone makes for their whole life is a conscious one?

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

1) For hundreds of years, nooses were used to hang black people. In that way, they were used most likely with racist intent. However, nooses still have other practical uses that have nothing to do with race or racism. There was the “noose” in the park which a politician assumed was some type of hate crime. As it turns out, the “noose” was an exercise tool used by a black man. There was also the issue with NASCAR and a “noose” being found in the garage of a black driver. Thing I is, nooses are used all the time in garages to close the doors when closing up. My point is, it’s foolish to define an object alone as racist, especially when those objects have other non racist purposes. Racism requires intent to discriminate or harm another race.

2) No I’m not saying any habit needs to be conscious. I’m saying for it to be racism, the belief had to be a conscious choice at some point. If a store employee subconsciously interacts with black customers to scope them out, at some point, the racist, conscious thought that blacks people are likely to shoplift has crossed their mind. If a store employee approached only black customers 100 times, yes some of those occasions may have been subconscious, but that pattern was built on a conscious racist thought,

4) My argument isn’t that black people get pulled over more cause only black people speed. My argument is we don’t know that at the given time there was a choice between black and white speeders for the officer. It’s a major assumption. The only way to prove your premise is to track the demographics of that stretch of road to show how many black people traveled on that stretch of road and how many white people did the same. The pullover statistics should be in line with those demographics.

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1) Well that’s not true but that is besides the point. Are you saying that no inanimate object can be racist?

2). Have you heard of the Harvard implicit bias test? It is a test designed to measure your association of black people with negative traits. The vast majority of people show a negative association of black faces and descriptors. Are you saying all those people, that the majority of the US (including the majority of black people) all have that association because they consciously feel black people are inherently more negative or violent?

4) It’s a pretty shoddy argument. I already showed the data, even in towns where white people are on the road more, black people get pulled over more. The point is: the pullover rate is not in line with the statistics. Not to mention cops use less justification on average to search a black person’s vehicle. Why do you think that is?

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Originally Posted by nastynice

lol, your entire first paragraph describes subconscious thinking driving conscious actions.

So, thank you for illustrating my point.

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He explains how his grandmother’s hatred for the Irish stems from her disliking her mother and she subconsciously ascribed those negatives to the Irish rather than deal with the fact her mom was bad.

And then says that was a conscious decision :laugh2:

Like his Grandmother thought “I don’t want to blame my mother for these problems so I consciously decide to blame the Irish” lol

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

I would agree with you if I only based my suspicion on the fact that they were middle eastern men. But several factors contributed to my thoughts. I even considered my subconscious perhaps playing a trick on me. I considered that we were traveling to DC, which would be a high target for terrorists. I considered where they sat in the train car. Two in the front, two in the back, one on either side. I considered that they each had similar backpacks and how they were dressed casually during the middle of the work week. This wasn’t my subconscious being programmed to believe middle eastern men are terrorists. It was much more entailed than that.

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It was definitely some subconscious fear or distrust of Muslims, and I’ll explain why.

You would not be wary of several casually dressed white men on that train traveling to DC even with similar backpacks.

So why be wary of one and not the other?

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

I would agree with you if I only based my suspicion on the fact that they were middle eastern men. But several factors contributed to my thoughts. I even considered my subconscious perhaps playing a trick on me. I considered that we were traveling to DC, which would be a high target for terrorists. I considered where they sat in the train car. Two in the front, two in the back, one on either side. I considered that they each had similar backpacks and how they were dressed casually during the middle of the work week. This wasn’t my subconscious being programmed to believe middle eastern men are terrorists. It was much more entailed than that.

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See this is a perfect illustration.

It doesnt have to be based on ONLY them being middle eastern. Them being middle eastern played a (major) role in your thinking.

In this case it is subconsciously the driving factor behind you even noticing such random **** like flying to DC and wearing backpacks (something I see basically in every single airport I've been in). In many cases it is not so clear and obvious, especially regarding black people in america.

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Originally Posted by valade16

He explains how his grandmother’s hatred for the Irish stems from her disliking her mother and she subconsciously ascribed those negatives to the Irish rather than deal with the fact her mom was bad.

And then says that was a conscious decision :laugh2:

Like his Grandmother thought “I don’t want to blame my mother for these problems so I consciously decide to blame the Irish” lol

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Yea, we are clearly having definition issues here because earlier I mentioned lee Atwater and he dismissed it based on an argument that doesnt even address my point. Now hes illustrating my point but somehow saying it's an argument against me.

This convo is all types a wierd, lol.

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Originally Posted by valade16

Of course there’s conscious thoughts that dictate subconscious behavior, just as subconscious dictates conscious behavior.

Do you think every single decision someone makes for their whole life is a conscious one?

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We are not talking about every single decision someone makes. We are talking about racial discrimination. My point is that racial discrimination is not a subconscious decision on its own and if there subconscious racist behavior it’s predicated on conscious racist beliefs.

In a weird way it’s like you are excusing racism while trying to claim how prevalent it is in our society. Earlier you compared racism to rape. Do you believe a man raping a woman is not fully aware of his decision? The definition of subconscious is- of or concerning the part of the mind of which one is not fully aware but which influences one's actions and feelings.
If you are not fully aware of something, how can one be held accountable on it?

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Originally Posted by valade16

So you support Black Lives Matter?

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we have been over this, you don't want to believe what I've said.

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

I don’t support the group BLM. Have you actually read their site and you 100% agree with it? Are you sure?

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Originally Posted by valade16

Since when do you have to agree with a group 100% to support them?

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I don't support everything they do while still supporting what the movement wants, and you come at me like that's not good enough.

I thought segregation was bad.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/09/12/us/fr...oro/index.html

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19 families buy nearly 97 acres of land in Georgia to create a city safe for Black people

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