This is why they kneel

Conservatives were outraged then too...

https://www.nypl.org/sites/default/f...and_carlos.jpg

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

Discrimination based on racist beliefs requires intent. If a black customer walked into a clothing store and began wondering around the store, the store employee may wonder over in their direction and may ask if they need assistance. This isn’t a necessarily a racist subconscious choice dictating behavior. It might be, given that person has racist thoughts. But if the person isn’t a racist, there’s no reason to believe it was discrimination.
My belief is that racism is not subconscious. Religion is not subconscious. People choose their belief systems. Being racist or not is among them.

Years ago I worked in a gas station. On my very first night, I took cash from a customer and the cash had boogies on it. From that day forward, I made a decision to as often as I could, not touch other people’s hands because I didn’t know where they had been. In doing so, I’d often drop coins into people’s hands as not to touch them. One night, a black customer accused me of doing this out of racism. I politely informed him that it wasn’t his “black hands” I was bothered to touch. It was anyone’s hands as I don’t know where those hands have been. That it wasn’t a subconscious decision not to touch his black hands. It was a conscious decision to avoid everyone’s hands.

No, I don’t believe a police officer would subconsciously choose to pull over a black person over a white person 100 consecutive times. Maybe a few times in a row but at some point, it becomes a conscious decision and in that case, a racist one.

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First Bolded: But even non racist intentions in implementing policy can become discriminatory. I doubt police performing stop and frisk in New York were making a conscious decision to stop mostly black people, I doubt the city itself implemented the program specifically to target black people. The end result of their police was disproportionately discriminatory towards black people.

Second Bolded: Sure, if a store employee walks over to a black person and asks assistance that isn't indicative of racism or discrimination. But if they frequently walk over and ask assistance of black people but not of white people, the chances decrease it was simply coincidence.

Third Bolded: The belief system is not what is subconscious. It affecting your decisions is the subconscious part. Honestly, I've never met someone who struggles with this concept quite as much as you. There's a reason that Christian voters tend to pick other Christian voters and it's not because most of them consciously decide "I'm only voting for the Christian!". It's because due to their christian faith they subconsciously view Christians as more like them and therefore have a predisposition towards positive opinions of them (and the reverse is true of atheists, Muslims).

Fourth Bolded: The example was a hypothetical in the extreme to illustrate the point for people who have trouble grasping the concept. It doesn't need to be 100 times in a row for the subconscious predilection to become discriminatory. Even if it's only 7 times more, that preference that results in pulling black people over randomly 57% of the time (to 43% of white people) spread over millions of stops results in more stops, more searches, more tickets, greater financial burden, more likely arrests, convictions, prison sentences, etc. So now black people are disproportionately affected on a systemic level due to a subconscious predilection to pull them over 7% more often than white people.

Are you getting any of this?

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

Yes I only support the phrase BLM. I don’t support the organization at all. While some of the things they are doing may be admirable. I fully disagree with their tactics and most, if not all, of their principles.

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I thank you for your honesty.

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Originally Posted by flips333

Yes because Goodwin's law is silly I am going to use Mussolini instead of Hitler for a dumb analogy.

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As a professor of Psychology (correct me if I'm wrong on that), do you have thoughts on the contention that racism only manifests itself as an intentional conscious decision, or have you given up this conversation as a lost cause?

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

My belief is that racism is not subconscious. .

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This is just objectively wrong, I dont know what else to tell you.

To illustrate this I will point out that blacks are guilty of systemic racism against blacks. Do you think they do that consciously?

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Originally Posted by valade16

First Bolded: But even non racist intentions in implementing policy can become discriminatory. I doubt police performing stop and frisk in New York were making a conscious decision to stop mostly black people, I doubt the city itself implemented the program specifically to target black people. The end result of their police was disproportionately discriminatory towards black people.

Second Bolded: Sure, if a store employee walks over to a black person and asks assistance that isn't indicative of racism or discrimination. But if they frequently walk over and ask assistance of black people but not of white people, the chances decrease it was simply coincidence.

Third Bolded: The belief system is not what is subconscious. It affecting your decisions is the subconscious part. Honestly, I've never met someone who struggles with this concept quite as much as you. There's a reason that Christian voters tend to pick other Christian voters and it's not because most of them consciously decide "I'm only voting for the Christian!". It's because due to their christian faith they subconsciously view Christians as more like them and therefore have a predisposition towards positive opinions of them (and the reverse is true of atheists, Muslims).

Fourth Bolded: The example was a hypothetical in the extreme to illustrate the point for people who have trouble grasping the concept. It doesn't need to be 100 times in a row for the subconscious predilection to become discriminatory. Even if it's only 7 times more, that preference that results in pulling black people over randomly 57% of the time (to 43% of white people) spread over millions of stops results in more stops, more searches, more tickets, greater financial burden, more likely arrests, convictions, prison sentences, etc. So now black people are disproportionately affected on a systemic level due to a subconscious predilection to pull them over 7% more often than white people.

Are you getting any of this?

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First- Policies are not racist if applied evenly. Stop and frisk wasn’t a racist policy. It may have been used in a racist or discriminatory fashion. But it was not a racist policy.

Second- if an employee consistently follows black customers and not white customers, this is discrimination. And it’s most likely not done subconsciously. In the very least, the person knows their racist ideals.

Third- people with strong religious beliefs don’t vote subconsciously for a strong religious candidate. It’s a very conscious choice to do so. I hate going down this well but the 9/11 terrorists did not subconsciously fly planes into building. Sure sometimes we subconsciously make decisions or choices but if those choices are based in some belief, it’s no longer subconscious. It’s behavior predicated on those beliefs.

Fourth- your example also made an assumption that a police officer would always have a choice between a black and white driver who were breaking the law. Obviously this is not the case and we wouldn’t know if it was.

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Originally Posted by nastynice

This is just objectively wrong, I dont know what else to tell you.

To illustrate this I will point out that blacks are guilty of systemic racism against blacks. Do you think they do that consciously?

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Yes.

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

Yes.

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Why would so many blacks be consciously racist against black people?

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Originally Posted by nastynice

Why would so many blacks be consciously racist against black people?

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Why you do or don’t like someone is beyond anyone’s understanding. My grandmother was half full blooded Italian (as she described herself). She would often tell me how all the neighbors, regardless of race, helped each other out during the Great Depression. Her father mended shoes and grew tomatoes in their garden and would share them with the neighbors. Betsy, a black woman, would bake bread and trade a loaf for a few tomatoes each week. There was one group my grandmother didn’t like though and that was the Irish. The Irish were scum to my grandmother. She couldn’t stand them. Now if you paid attention to my little diatribe, I mentioned that my grandmother was half Italian. Her other half was Irish. My great grandmother, her mom, was full blooded Irish or as she called them “pig ******* Irish.” My grandmother discriminated against her own. She did this in full consciousness. People don’t like groups for whatever the reason.

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

Why you do or don’t like someone is beyond anyone’s understanding. My grandmother was half full blooded Italian (as she described herself). She would often tell me how all the neighbors, regardless of race, helped each other out during the Great Depression. Her father mended shoes and grew tomatoes in their garden and would share them with the neighbors. Betsy, a black woman, would bake bread and trade a loaf for a few tomatoes each week. There was one group my grandmother didn’t like though and that was the Irish. The Irish were scum to my grandmother. She couldn’t stand them. Now if you paid attention to my little diatribe, I mentioned that my grandmother was half Italian. Her other half was Irish. My great grandmother, her mom, was full blooded Irish or as she called them “pig ******* Irish.” My grandmother discriminated against her own. She did this in full consciousness. People don’t like groups for whatever the reason.

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That's great for your grandmother, obviously the true reasons for her views are probably a little deeper than any of us realize, but that doesnt mean that every black person being racist toward their own race do so consciously.

Also, it can be conscious, but there are still many subconscious elements at play. For example my friend is a girl who wears hijab, when she saw a hijabi lady on a plane her initial reaction was a fear reaction that the lady might be a terrorist. She was fully conscious of it but she still did so due to subconscious programming. See?

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You want receipts? This guy brought receipts.

Dude making **** up about BLM and didn’t expect to be called out so publicly!

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Originally Posted by joeyc77

First- Policies are not racist if applied evenly. Stop and frisk wasn’t a racist policy. It may have been used in a racist or discriminatory fashion. But it was not a racist policy.

Second- if an employee consistently follows black customers and not white customers, this is discrimination. And it’s most likely not done subconsciously. In the very least, the person knows their racist ideals.

Third- people with strong religious beliefs don’t vote subconsciously for a strong religious candidate. It’s a very conscious choice to do so. I hate going down this well but the 9/11 terrorists did not subconsciously fly planes into building. Sure sometimes we subconsciously make decisions or choices but if those choices are based in some belief, it’s no longer subconscious. It’s behavior predicated on those beliefs.

Fourth- your example also made an assumption that a police officer would always have a choice between a black and white driver who were breaking the law. Obviously this is not the case and we wouldn’t know if it was.

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First Bolded: you switched the wording from discriminatory to racist just now. Why? Yes, stop and frisk in the abstract is not a racist or discriminatory policy, but if it is used to be racist or discriminatory it can then become one. Much like how a noose is not by itself racist but when used to hang a black person for being black it can become racist.

Second: But it is indeed very possible to do so without realizing it. It seems as if you’re saying any pattern or habit you do is entirely a conscious decision. That is absolute lunacy.

Third: Way to conflate an act like flying a plane into a building with voting lol. You seem to believe every decision in a person’s day to day routine carries the same weight, or that people put as much conscious thought into which city councilmen they’ll vote for as they do on whether to commit suicide as a martyr in a terrorist attack. This is lunacy

Fourth: If your argument is that black people get pulled over more because they simply speed more well you fell right into the circular logic trap to justify it. You also never answered why less evidence was used on average to conduct searches of black people.

Again, I don’t know how else to explain this: you don’t know anything about psychology. You are the very definition of ignorance if you honestly believe no one has ever acted out of a subconscious thought or acted upon one. It’s lunacy.

I wonder what Joey thinks the term “fight or flight” means. I bet he genuinely believes in that moment people make a conscious decision on whether to run or fight.

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Originally Posted by nastynice

That's great for your grandmother, obviously the true reasons for her views are probably a little deeper than any of us realize, but that doesnt mean that every black person being racist toward their own race do so consciously.

Also, it can be conscious, but there are still many subconscious elements at play. For example my friend is a girl who wears hijab, when she saw a hijabi lady on a plane her initial reaction was a fear reaction that the lady might be a terrorist. She was fully conscious of it but she still did so due to subconscious programming. See?

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For my grandmother it probably had something to do with her not respecting her mother as a homemaker/mother. She would always tell stories about how her and her five brother and sisters took care of each other. In her mind, it was probably easier to put this on all Irish than accepting the fact that her mom was crappy. I’d say the same is true of black people who hate black people. More than likely something negative happened to them in their life involving another black person. My dad worked with a black guy who hated black people. He’d stop by every now and then and sit and chat with my dad. He’d go on and on about nword this and nword that. One day he told us the story that made it all make sense. When he was 20 years old, a group of black kids jumped him and stole his wallet. While hating a race for the actions of a few is illogical, it makes sense at least.

The point of this is that it’s all a conscious decision. I’d say the same about your friend on a plane. Given recent history, this is a natural thought. There was no harm in her thought. A few years ago, my ex wife and I took my daughter into DC on a train. While sitting on the train waiting for it to debark, I noticed 4 middle eastern men separately board the train and sit in different sections of the car. There where other factors that contributed to my suspicions such as they all had similar backpacks. This was obviously just a false alarm on my part but I still told my daughter that if anything weird started happening to get behind me and crouch down behind this provider. I didn’t inform her about my direct suspicion, I used the phrases “weird” or “dangerous.” Anyway, this isn’t my subconscious playing with me and it wasn’t for your friend either. It’s a conscious decision based on relevant data.

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Originally Posted by valade16

I wonder what Joey thinks the term “fight or flight” means. I bet he genuinely believes in that moment people make a conscious decision on whether to run or fight.

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LOL very likely.