that's fine, that's great.............it's the 7% that will still get the most news coverage and, for some at least, degrade the efforts of the 93%Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Of It All
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that's fine, that's great.............it's the 7% that will still get the most news coverage and, for some at least, degrade the efforts of the 93%Quote:
Originally Posted by Sick Of It All
I’m not connecting the dots. The dots are already connected. Postal workers use to have value enough to justify their salaries, benefits and pensions. Technology and the private sector have lessened that value. This is true of a lot of industries such as auto manufacturers. My dad worked in a union factory for an auto manufacturer for decades and made a good wage/pension. Those factory workers eventually lost their value for numerous reasons and eventually the factories closed. When technology or other factors contribute to employees losing value to a company, corporations have the ability and an obligation to lessen the burden through lay offs and closures. This puts pressure on the union. Both corporations and unions have these pressures so there’s a struggle between the two sides. Governments do not have the ability corporations do. There can be budget cuts but those are not the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by mngopher35
So long as there is a police union, the changes do suggest will not occur. The union will not allow it. Furthermore, even if you abolish police and start over, you still have no system in place to reprimand poor/racist police officers that didn’t involve union representation, which basically means no meaningful punishment. I’m sorry but you Utopian society does not exist. Simply because you say so, people do not have to stop being racist. This is a free country.
Your value and opinion of what is justified seems to be the issue here and you have not actually connected the dots with any real proof of unions and their issues specifically s it relates to the overall budget or how it makes their work worth less $ due to outside factors but their jobs are the same essentially. Not everything solely comes down to the $ on every single issue to every one where whatever makes us most is best, there are tons of others ways to benefit society (and sometimes making more will damage it/environment etc). Also we can't ignore the viewpoint of the worker and you are kinda explaining why unions are more necessary now for the workers as many will likely try and use this as an excuse to claim what you are here. Blaming them for $ issues, almost like this entire time that is what people have pointed out happens whether private or public. You gave tons of reasons they are less valuable and it is on the postal service/government to adjust where necessary, the unions need to be there to fight back against over the top actions trying to be justified due to these issues. You haven't actually gotten specific about the issues, we can agree the postal service has some issues in many ways including their losing value to other factors in society and still think employees should have someone continuing to fight for their wages/benefits/safety while many try and use that to justify paying workers less for similar jobs as before.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyc77
Not every police union/police department across the nation is the same, the very bad ones we agree. As I noted this is the area where issues do seem rampant though so we agree. Again this is why we keep seeing a push to abolish, many agree with you specifically when it comes to police unions. Glad you see their side and agree on taking action towards these departments/unions full of corruption (they are just the ones protecting the bad people remember, those bad cops are the biggest issue here). I never said a utopian society exists nor that no one being racist is possible lol this is more of your absurd rantings about things not brought up.
if the mainstream media isn't covering it, is it really happening. :shrug:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewersfan255
Because one is in the game to protect the public the other is in the game to make money and thus do not have the best interests of the public at heart. I want the best and brightest advancing medical care. I want the people doing the primary research and advancing the regulations to be as competent as someone who has every reason to cook the books. We know they will. Vioxx, the ****ing opioid crisis 100s of thousands dead in the last 10 years and you can attribute it to the values of the pharmaceutical industry.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyc77
Think about it... what is the best medicine? One that cures a disease or one that you have to take every day to prevent that disease from killing you. Obviously the one that cures. OK.. Which is best for any private business? Obviously, the one that you have to take every day.
The values that are advanced by our society work in a lot of situations. But not all. I want public employees that are advancing a valued service to be paid as well as those that are doing it to make some ******* money. I get it, you disagree.. Seems silly to me. But...
Like I said before, some of this is common knowledge. I’m not going to provide proof of common knowledge.Quote:
Originally Posted by mngopher35
Do we agree that unions primary goal and focus are to get the best possible salaries, benefits and pensions for their members? I’m not blaming the workers for the money issues facing USPS. I’m blaming the unions. Workers don’t have a choice but to be in the union. Unions also benefit from higher wages because they can raise union dues. Unions are not concerned with the money issues facing USPS.
You consistently ask me for specifics while not providing any of your own. I’ve given specific ideas on fixing issues in the inner city- is 1) legalize all drugs and sell in a state licensed store 2) abolish police and teacher unions. What are your specific attainable ideas on fixing the issues facing inner cities? You can’t pick and choose certain unions or certain police. The world does not work that way.
If they are in the game to protect the public that should be their primary motivation then. If people are motivated by money, there’s the private sector. As I said, soldiers get paid less than private military. I’m sure soldiers have some type of patriotic motivation as well. Some people are motivated by money. Some are motivated by intangibles. Those ones will most likely work for less money to fulfill those intangibles.Quote:
Originally Posted by flips333
https://twitter.com/stillgray/status...150276096?s=21
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Needs more dramatic music. :laugh2:Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewersfan255
Alright so you just don't have any real proof of this being the major issue you claim and there are many other factors like the ones we covered. Your opinion without ever being able to back it up for many days straight to end up saying this is exactly what I was getting at before in your approach, when you asked I responded with something other than my own opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyc77
They are there for the workers in other ways as well but yes and that is what they are needed for as you talk about this need to cut those aspects and how it is ruining us lol. I have never denied this and stated it multiple times I don't get why you have to question this we have been through it. Their goal is the workers protection in many ways while others will focus on making profits/losing money and the many different issues changing outside just the employees as well.
What specifics do I need to provide? You asked specific questions about what unions do before and I did provide a link. You tried to twist what it said of course but I still provided something clear when it was asked and you have not done so over about 20 posts now (as if this is new). I agree with 1 and disagree with 2. I am alright in some situations abolishing police and their unions as I said depending on how drastic the issues are in each location. If you want to make country wide changes/standards to policing that is alright too but doesn't necessarily need to be only focused on unions (many more issues).
You are making this issue a million time broader than just about unions you now talk about fixing inner cities? Healthcare for all, improvements in education including free college, legalizing drugs, looking into prison system as a whole making changes likely many being let free and less about punishment more rehabilitation moving forward, looking into policing as a whole and making massive changes in who responds to what scenarios along with training as well for police, UBI... I am just gonna stop this is ridiculous. Also you absolutely can do that, the idea that we need to take the approach towards everything just because some of them are bad is ridiculous, Camden already did this themselves so it is clearly possible. Each sector is different as well once you get into firefighter/USPS/garbage etc. too this is obvious and you won't cover any of them in depth despite asking many times now. You are just trying to associate the worst to the whole as mentioned and refuse to get into specifics at any point just demanding everyone only look at this through one lens of all or nothing.
Joey without police unions would DAs start indicting cops? Would those within the police mgt get rid of all these bad cops or are they complicit?
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lol, trumps 2020 campaign so far has to be the most pathetic presidential campaign in US history. It gets worse every commercial I see, lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brewersfan255
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At some level, police mgt are appointed by politicians. Also, currently DAs are pressured by the one for all mentality with police unions.Quote:
Originally Posted by ewing
So a utopian, liberal society. Got it...Quote:
Originally Posted by mngopher35
If you think it's Utopian that is all on you, I just pointed out other things that can be focused on instead of unions like you asked for and did with the drug issue. I even noted how I never said it so at this point it's your description not mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by joeyc77
If your big issues with moving towards a "Utopian" type of country is that it is also more liberal, that's on you.