This is why they kneel

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08-15-2020, 06:41 PM
ewing

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyc77

Unions are the reason for funding and the reasons better tactics cannot be taught/learned. The problem is the herd mentality that comes with unions. Trying to fire a bad teacher or a bad cop should be a simple premise but it’s not.

Yep free market forces will self regulate and create a utopia unless of course a couple wage earners realize they have similar interest.

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08-15-2020, 06:47 PM
joeyc77

Quote:

Originally Posted by mngopher35

Sure but the same way that you jumped from % of the population to "given higher crime rates" is in part acknowledging the system is a major factor (this would be part of the system and people are talking about the systematic issues). Is there something in our systems history to now that could have possibly been aimed to do this? War on drugs and stop and frisk are some examples.

As a % of the population your statements don't hold true. When you add in numbers based on the current system people have an issue with, that is when your claims have some numerical backing. You are using the system people are pointing to as an issue to justify there not being an issue. It seems you acknowledge above an issue with cops. If the way the enforce is biased that will affect the numbers you provide. Between this and the policy/application issues it means the numbers you use already have some systematic issues within, at least one of which you have acknowledged.

The numbers based on population and not just the system show some issues. There are many aspects to this as others note like location/poor, it might not always just be racial aspects either. Also when looking up your numbers I first came across this article. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...19/5322455002/
It's a fact check of something posted by Charlie Kirk and notes that the Post's data shows a different number along with other issues acknowledged within too. It says the posts data actually shows 13 unarmed black men shot in 2019 not 8 (you said 9 though, care to share where you got that?).

The number has been updated since I had last saw it. The number 9 was in the Washington post. It has since increased to 15. But so has the number of white people (from 19 to 25). So the % is still in line with % of population given the higher crime rate.

I agree the higher crime rate can be linked to the poverty level, across all races. However, this is not evidence a systemic issue. It’s a poverty and crime issue. It’s also a family issue as many young black men grow up without fathers but again, related to poverty.
08-15-2020, 06:49 PM
joeyc77

Quote:

Originally Posted by ewing

Yep free market forces will self regulate and create a utopia unless of course a couple wage earners realize they have similar interest.

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This is public sector unions. That is unions against the government. If we can’t trust the government to pay fair wages to teachers and cops, what the **** can we trust them with?
08-15-2020, 07:01 PM
ewing

This is why they kneel

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyc77

This is public sector unions. That is unions against the government. If we can’t trust the government to pay fair wages to teachers and cops, what the **** can we trust them with?

It’s unions negotiating with management. It not an anti govt revolution

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08-15-2020, 07:36 PM
joeyc77

Quote:

Originally Posted by ewing

It’s unions negotiating with management. Mgt interests are often contrary to labors.

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With public sector unions, “management” is the government, typically local government. There also shouldn’t need to be a negotiation. No citizen has an issue with teachers or police officers being paid a fair wage. We do have an issue with bad teachers and bad police officers being able to hide behind union protection. They are able to get lazy and not learn new ideals or tactics to deal with situations involving the public.
08-15-2020, 07:42 PM
mngopher35

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyc77

The number has been updated since I had last saw it. The number 9 was in the Washington post. It has since increased to 15. But so has the number of white people (from 19 to 25). So the % is still in line with % of population given the higher crime rate.

I agree the higher crime rate can be linked to the poverty level, across all races. However, this is not evidence a systemic issue. It’s a poverty and crime issue. It’s also a family issue as many young black men grow up without fathers but again, related to poverty.

Alright but again those numbers are actually showing something different than in line of % with population. If black people make up like 13% and white people like 72% then that ratio is actually way off. When you include a system with major bias being complained about it can try and hide that obvious issue though as I was noting, that's why you keep adding the "given the higher crime rate". Once you include the systematic issues like the laws noted you ignored and application, that's when you can start to try to justify the differences instead of looking at the system as a whole. Those differences are there though either way and it is a reality most recognize/data can show as this does even with your rhetoric.

I bet it can, almost lik economics are a part of this too (like housing). Systematic issues are like the application and design of the war on drugs, stop and frisk then as noted the many different ones that are economic based such as red lining and housing issues, then you have the prison for $ to keep people locked up and families without support, then you have not keeping minimum wage up to keep these people down and use police violence/force on them excessively killing them. Shall I go on? It's ridiculous to pretend like there aren't/haven't been tons of issues in this country over time that are leading to all of these problems that involve issues with our system. I actually have noted war on drugs and stop and frisk application in that post so clear examples of it being a reality. You can argue many more like ggg-men was getting at or some I listed there. Then we can get into the elections and what is going on too and how to limit voting access. I mean it's crazy to pretend like the system would have no bearing on this as a whole. The system is a big part of separating those families in the first place.
08-15-2020, 07:43 PM
ewing

This is why they kneel

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyc77

With public sector unions, “management” is the government, typically local government. There also shouldn’t need to be a negotiation. No citizen has an issue with teachers or police officers being paid a fair wage. We do have an issue with bad teachers and bad police officers being able to hide behind union protection. They are able to get lazy and not learn new ideals or tactics to deal with situations involving the public.

Management is someone with a job, a budget, and managerial goals. The terms of employment for these people are hardly determined by or line up with what a public referendum would dictate. This no different then the private sector negotiations that you also oppose when discussed

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08-15-2020, 08:55 PM
ewing

This is why they kneel

Btw the average teacher’s salary is 60,000 and the average cops makes 54,000. if we want to lessen job security and/or change the standard of getting in the door i have a solution. Anyone have a guess as to what the bargaining chip would be?

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08-15-2020, 09:07 PM
spliff(TONE)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ewing

Btw the average teacher’s salary is 60,000 and the average cops makes 54,000.

That's a little tough to believe.
08-15-2020, 09:44 PM
joeyc77

Quote:

Originally Posted by ewing

Management is someone with a job, a budget, and managerial goals. The terms of employment for these people are hardly determined by or line up with what a public referendum would dictate. This no different then the private sector negotiations that you also oppose when discussed

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But those managers are govt employees. Many times, they are voted into office. Either way, there shouldn’t need to be a union to protect teachers and police. Unions do more harm then good in this situation. It’s THE reason so many bad cops are able to keep their job.
08-15-2020, 09:53 PM
ewing

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyc77

But those managers are govt employees. Many times, they are voted into office. Either way, there shouldn’t need to be a union to protect teachers and police. Unions do more harm then good in this situation. It’s THE reason so many bad cops are able to keep their job.

So and I disagree

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08-15-2020, 10:05 PM
ewing

This is why they kneel

Quote:

Originally Posted by spliff(TONE)

That's a little tough to believe.

That’s what the internet tells me. It also lines up with my personal experience being married to a school psychologist (a position that requires a bachelors degree, masters, and 30 credit certification to get in the door)

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08-15-2020, 10:22 PM
spliff(TONE)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ewing

That’s what the internet tells me. It also lines up with my personal experience being married to a school psychologist (a position that requires a bachelors degree, masters, and 30 credit certification to get in the door)

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Yeah, higher education sort of teaching roles must really help up the average salary is all I could come up with with no research of my own.
08-15-2020, 10:32 PM
Brewersfan255

http://www.nea.org/home/2017-2018-av...er-salary.html

Looks like nationally the starting salary among teachers is 40k

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08-15-2020, 10:54 PM
ewing

This is why they kneel

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brewersfan255

http://www.nea.org/home/2017-2018-av...er-salary.html

Looks like nationally the starting salary among teachers is 40k

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Yep and the average overall is 61,000. Not a lot for a job that requires masters work, an unpaid externship in most cases, and is one of the more important jobs in our society.

I feel the same about cops.

https://www.businessinsider.com/teac...y-state-2018-4

https://www.indeed.com/career/police-officer/salaries

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