COVID-19 Response: An issue that shouldn't be at all political....yet here we are

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Originally Posted by Crovash

Maybe our focus on the fallout of the pandemic should not be political, but it should be economic.

Here’s one exerpt from an article in The Guardian about how America’s wealthy are profiting from the pandemic.

“About 150 public companies managed to bag more than $600m in forgivable loans before the funds ran out. Among them was Shake Shack, a company with 6,000 employees valued at $2bn. It has since given the cash back but others have not.

Fisher Island, a members-only location off the coast of Miami where the average income of residents is $2.2m and the beaches are made from imported Bahamian sand, has received $2m in aid.

Its residents seemed to be doing fine even before the bailout. This month, the island purchased thousands of rapid Covid-19 blood test kits for all residents and workers.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ic-into-profit

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That sucks but the reality is that to those companies the $600m is not big money, and they are going to lose money overall.

The economic impact is not going to be recovered from for a decade.

https://apnews.com/68a9e1b91de4ffc166acd6012d82c2f9

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But what is clear, experts say, is that China’s rigid controls on information, bureaucratic hurdles and a reluctance to send bad news up the chain of command muffled early warnings. The punishment of eight doctors for “rumor-mongering,” broadcast on national television on Jan. 2, sent a chill through the city’s hospitals.

“Doctors in Wuhan were afraid,” said Dali Yang, a professor of Chinese politics at the University of Chicago. “It was truly intimidation of an entire profession.”

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From late November when the first report of a new virus was supposedly sent up the chain to Jan 20 it went from something that was containable to a world wide disaster. That delay is ENTIRELY on the CCP, and their stated and ongoing prioritization of party and politics over lives.

And the source is the Associated Press which is a pretty reliable, if shallow, source.

Read the link, there is a lot more I didn't quote.

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Originally Posted by Crovash

Maybe our focus on the fallout of the pandemic should not be political, but it should be economic.

Here’s one exerpt from an article in The Guardian about how America’s wealthy are profiting from the pandemic.

“About 150 public companies managed to bag more than $600m in forgivable loans before the funds ran out. Among them was Shake Shack, a company with 6,000 employees valued at $2bn. It has since given the cash back but others have not.

Fisher Island, a members-only location off the coast of Miami where the average income of residents is $2.2m and the beaches are made from imported Bahamian sand, has received $2m in aid.

Its residents seemed to be doing fine even before the bailout. This month, the island purchased thousands of rapid Covid-19 blood test kits for all residents and workers.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ic-into-profit

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There were loopholes for some companies to apply for those. Also, while I don't know anything about Shake Shack, franchisees who are considered small business for the most part, would be eligible for those loans. So maybe Shake Shack corporate took it, but maybe their franchisees (if they aren't corporate owned) ended up with that money.

Also, that Fisher Island place probably qualifies as a small business (under 500 employees) even if they are a member only business. But if you try to shut them down, what prevents other "membership only" places like an independently owned gym with the same number of employees, from being turned away as well?

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Originally Posted by Scoots

"A 60% increase" means they went from 15 calls to 20 which could be entirely attributed to people being home a lot more, and if it's about Trump why include the numbers for all of march?

This whole thing is so stupid.

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lol, yup

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Crovash

Maybe our focus on the fallout of the pandemic should not be political, but it should be economic.

Here’s one exerpt from an article in The Guardian about how America’s wealthy are profiting from the pandemic.

“About 150 public companies managed to bag more than $600m in forgivable loans before the funds ran out. Among them was Shake Shack, a company with 6,000 employees valued at $2bn. It has since given the cash back but others have not.

Fisher Island, a members-only location off the coast of Miami where the average income of residents is $2.2m and the beaches are made from imported Bahamian sand, has received $2m in aid.

Its residents seemed to be doing fine even before the bailout. This month, the island purchased thousands of rapid Covid-19 blood test kits for all residents and workers.”

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...ic-into-profit

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I called this **** out before the stimulus bill was even approved. Seen it from a mile away.

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Originally Posted by Scoots

"A 60% increase" means they went from 15 calls to 20 which could be entirely attributed to people being home a lot more, and if it's about Trump why include the numbers for all of march?

This whole thing is so stupid.

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Yes, I know how math works. I was simply pointing out how ridiculous it is that people actually need to be told not to drink or inject disinfectant. Or at least that some officials feel as though the public needs to be reminded of this.

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Originally Posted by spliff(TONE)

Yes, I know how math works. I was simply pointing out how ridiculous it is that people actually need to be told not to drink or inject disinfectant. Or at least that some officials feel as though the public needs to be reminded of this.

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Okay, though my point was that the stats in the post were themselves meaningless.

Like dishwashers are failing at a much faster rate than before the shelter in place ... one can conclude that dishwashers are getting the Rona, or that dishwashers are giving up because of Trump/Biden, or that they are just being used more often and thus reaching a failure point in a shorter calendar time.

I've seen a few "stats" to prove something in the last month that can be explained by the sudden and encompassing change in our society.

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Originally Posted by ThomasTomasz

There were loopholes for some companies to apply for those. Also, while I don't know anything about Shake Shack, franchisees who are considered small business for the most part, would be eligible for those loans. So maybe Shake Shack corporate took it, but maybe their franchisees (if they aren't corporate owned) ended up with that money.

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I do know that Shake Shack returned the money, whether for good PR or because they knew they were out of line.

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Originally Posted by ThomasTomasz

Also, that Fisher Island place probably qualifies as a small business (under 500 employees) even if they are a member only business. But if you try to shut them down, what prevents other "membership only" places like an independently owned gym with the same number of employees, from being turned away as well?

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In this case — and I am sure in countless others — there’s is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. It’s pretty obvious that the wealthy are already relatively very well insulated from this pandemic. Shame on them for taking the money instead of figuring out a way to deal with it privately.

EDIT: Apparently embarrassed by the publicity, the private club is giving the money back. Just makes me wonder how many others scams out there are hoping that they don’t get called out?

This is one of the benefits to having an engaged media.

https://time.com/5827509/fisher-island-loan/

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Originally Posted by Crovash

In this case — and I am sure in countless others — there’s is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. It’s pretty obvious that the wealthy are already relatively very well insulated from this pandemic. Shame on them for taking the money instead of figuring out a way to deal with it privately.

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Isnt this what you expected tho? I did.

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Originally Posted by Crovash

I do know that Shake Shack returned the money, whether for good PR or because they knew they were out of line.

In this case — and I am sure in countless others — there’s is the letter of the law and the spirit of the law. It’s pretty obvious that the wealthy are already relatively very well insulated from this pandemic. Shame on them for taking the money instead of figuring out a way to deal with it privately.

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That's true, but we also don't know the financials of the membership only place. Like a golf course/club near me, that nearly went out of business. A few business owners who were members put together their own LLC and bought the country club.

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Originally Posted by ThomasTomasz

That's true, but we also don't know the financials of the membership only place. Like a golf course/club near me, that nearly went out of business. A few business owners who were members put together their own LLC and bought the country club.

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See my edit above.

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Originally Posted by Scoots

Okay, though my point was that the stats in the post were themselves meaningless.

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....and I do not disagree with you on that.

I posted the article because it related to what was being discussed and to laugh at where we are as a country: state officials, the CDC, and Lysol (amongst others) feeling the need to come out and remind us that we shouldn't ingest disinfectants.

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Originally Posted by Crovash

See my edit above.

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Right, and that's good on them. But how many other private clubs might need the money? It's unfair to expect the members to bail them out in all instances.

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Originally Posted by ThomasTomasz

Right, and that's good on them. But how many other private clubs might need the money? It's unfair to expect the members to bail them out in all instances.

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I do not believe that I ever indicated that private clubs should not qualify. I do not think this one should have (and I don’t know enough of the distribution process to know whether they applied for it, were selected for it, or just got lucky — that would be an important sidebar to the story).

I wish it were otherwise, but I must say that I do not implicitly trust the distribution process, and I hope more media get motivated to do this kind of reporting.

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Originally Posted by Crovash

I do not believe that I ever indicated that private clubs should not qualify. I do not think this one should have (and I don’t know enough of the distribution process to know whether they applied for it, were selected for it, or just got lucky — that would be an important sidebar to the story).

I wish it were otherwise, but I must say that I do not implicitly trust the distribution process, and I hope more media get motivated to do this kind of reporting.

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Gotcha. I absolutely agree.

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Originally Posted by spliff(TONE)

....and I do not disagree with you on that.

I posted the article because it related to what was being discussed and to laugh at where we are as a country: state officials, the CDC, and Lysol (amongst others) feeling the need to come out and remind us that we shouldn't ingest disinfectants.

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One last try and don't feel the need to respond. I talked about the stats because you specifically quoted the following:

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In the past couple of days since Trump's remarks, the IPC said it has seen a 60% increase in calls related to "inappropriate exposures to disinfectants/cleaners."

...

The IPC received 750 household cleaning product calls from March 1 through April 20 last year. In that same period this year, it got 1,024 calls.

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Those specific parts of your quote are why I replied the way I did. Had they not been specifically quoted by you I would not have thought those ABSURD points were part of what you were intending to highlight.

It bugs me that they have near 2 months of data and imply that the 60% increase is a result of Trump's idiocy a few days ago. This time and situational sloppiness is a really common way lies spread.

Yes, you've made that abundantly clear.

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Originally Posted by Scoots

One last try and don't feel the need to respond. I talked about the stats because you specifically quoted the following:



Those specific parts of your quote are why I replied the way I did. Had they not been specifically quoted by you I would not have thought those ABSURD points were part of what you were intending to highlight.

It bugs me that they have near 2 months of data and imply that the 60% increase is a result of Trump's idiocy a few days ago. This time and situational sloppiness is a really common way lies spread.

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lol, that buzz tho..

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Follow up to my comments yesterday about the wealthy exploiting the pandemic:

“Many of the tax benefits in the stimulus are “just shoveling money to rich people,” said Victor Fleischer, a tax law professor at the University of California, Irvine. While the 2017 tax-cut package was a bonanza for big companies and wealthy individuals, in order to keep the law’s overall costs down it imposed a number of restrictions on who could take advantage of certain tax breaks and how much those taxpayers could reap.

One provision tucked into the federal economic-rescue law increases the amount of deductions companies are permitted to take on the interest they pay on large quantities of debt. Only companies with at least $25 million in annual receipts can qualify for that break.

Another change lets people deduct even more of their businesses’ losses from any winnings they reaped in the stock market, sharply reducing what they owe in capital gains taxes. Only households earning at least $500,000 a year — the top 1 percent of American taxpayers — are eligible.

And yet another provision in last month’s rescue package allows companies to deduct losses in one year against profits that they earned years earlier. The tax break most likely won’t put any extra cash directly into the hands of companies hit by the current crisis for at least a year.

The bottom line is that, barely two years after congressional Republicans and President Trump lavished America’s wealthiest families and companies with a series of lucrative tax cuts, those same beneficiaries are now receiving a second helping.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/24/b...thy-virus.html

Meanwhile, I haven’t seen a penny from the government.


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Originally Posted by Zmaster52

Meanwhile, I haven’t seen a penny from the government.


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Yeah, my daughter's been having a rough go. Graduated college this year and started working in January, now she has an apartment that I'm paying for because she cant work due to the virus. It's a tough situation to be in, but I guess they had to draw a line somewhere.

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Originally Posted by benny01

Yeah, my daughter's been having a rough go. Graduated college this year and started working in January, now she has an apartment that I'm paying for because she cant work due to the virus. It's a tough situation to be in, but I guess they had to draw a line somewhere.

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I’ve already spoken about my situation and don’t want to continue *****ing about it but holy **** have I been running through my savings lol. Ran out of money this past week.

My problem - besides my opinion that college aged students are the most ****ed over age demographic in the country is that this line barely makes sense. Some people got stimulus checks, some didn’t. Some people are still waiting on these checks, as well.

Some of these businesses are getting millions of dollars in relief, some dead people are getting checks, people who are still working from home making $X0,000 are getting this money and I’ve heard from numerous people that they don’t personally need the money.

One of my best friends is a cardiac nurse upstate. He is getting hazard pay, got a rebate check from school, got a stimulus check, and some other forms of money that I can’t exactly remember. All in all, the guy has made something like $10,000 in the last month. Granted, if anybody deserves it, it’s him. Had an abusive family, lived on his own since he was 15, is an essential worker, etc. Still, even he tells me that getting that much money is ridiculous, especially since people like me haven’t seen a penny.

Like, I get $400 a week, I would be ecstatic. Some of these people are getting $2500 plus that they don’t even need.

I was trying to move out, buy a car, start my life, etc. I’m gonna have to put that plan on hold for another year at least, when I’m gonna be 25...****.

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Originally Posted by Zmaster52

I’ve already spoken about my situation and don’t want to continue *****ing about it but holy **** have I been running through my savings lol. Ran out of money this past week.

My problem - besides my opinion that college aged students are the most ****ed over age demographic in the country is that this line barely makes sense. Some people got stimulus checks, some didn’t. Some people are still waiting on these checks, as well.

Some of these businesses are getting millions of dollars in relief, some dead people are getting checks, people who are still working from home making $X0,000 are getting this money and I’ve heard from numerous people that they don’t personally need the money.

One of my best friends is a cardiac nurse upstate. He is getting hazard pay, got a rebate check from school, got a stimulus check, and some other forms of money that I can’t exactly remember. All in all, the guy has made something like $10,000 in the last month. Granted, if anybody deserves it, it’s him. Had an abusive family, lived on his own since he was 15, is an essential worker, etc. Still, even he tells me that getting that much money is ridiculous, especially since people like me haven’t seen a penny.

Like, I get $400 a week, I would be ecstatic. Some of these people are getting $2500 plus that they don’t even need.

I was trying to move out, buy a car, start my life, etc. I’m gonna have to put that plan on hold for another year at least, when I’m gonna be 25...****.

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Yeah, I feel ya. This whole deal was handled poorly. Too much of congress trying to serve too many masters rather than getting the help where it needs to go.

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Originally Posted by Zmaster52

I’ve already spoken about my situation and don’t want to continue *****ing about it but holy **** have I been running through my savings lol. Ran out of money this past week.

My problem - besides my opinion that college aged students are the most ****ed over age demographic in the country is that this line barely makes sense. Some people got stimulus checks, some didn’t. Some people are still waiting on these checks, as well.

Some of these businesses are getting millions of dollars in relief, some dead people are getting checks, people who are still working from home making $X0,000 are getting this money and I’ve heard from numerous people that they don’t personally need the money.

One of my best friends is a cardiac nurse upstate. He is getting hazard pay, got a rebate check from school, got a stimulus check, and some other forms of money that I can’t exactly remember. All in all, the guy has made something like $10,000 in the last month. Granted, if anybody deserves it, it’s him. Had an abusive family, lived on his own since he was 15, is an essential worker, etc. Still, even he tells me that getting that much money is ridiculous, especially since people like me haven’t seen a penny.

Like, I get $400 a week, I would be ecstatic. Some of these people are getting $2500 plus that they don’t even need.

I was trying to move out, buy a car, start my life, etc. I’m gonna have to put that plan on hold for another year at least, when I’m gonna be 25...****.

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Try to get a job when you are in the 50s

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Originally Posted by benny01

Yeah, I feel ya. This whole deal was handled poorly. Too much of congress trying to serve too many masters rather than getting the help where it needs to go.

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I'll add that you might try to contact your local and state rep. offices, they can usually be of some help in finding some lesser known programs on a local level that might be able to give you some relief. Granted I dont know what state you are in, but it might be worth some time on the phone.

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Originally Posted by Sluggo1

Try to get a job when you are in the 50s

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lol at least you’ll be able to get social security.

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Originally Posted by benny01

I'll add that you might try to contact your local and state rep. offices, they can usually be of some help in finding some lesser known programs on a local level that might be able to give you some relief. Granted I dont know what state you are in, but it might be worth some time on the phone.

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Yeah I’ve tried. I’m in NY...everybody over here is getting ****ed over. All I can really do is try to unemployment which said they’d contact me within 72 hours....250 hours ago. You call and just end up getting put on hold.


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Originally Posted by Zmaster52

Yeah I’ve tried. I’m in NY...everybody over here is getting ****ed over. All I can really do is try to unemployment which said they’d contact me within 72 hours....250 hours ago. You call and just end up getting put on hold.


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Got ya. Yeah I'm sure that system is completely taxed at this point.

Early on I was throwing out some numbers on how devastating this is in my area. Here’s an update (fwiw).

In addition to the 5 boroughs, the NYC metro area encompasses 25 other counties (8 in NY, 13 in NJ, 3 in CT, and 1 in PA)

The total population is 21,000,000 (half of which — roughly 10,500,000 — is in NYC itself).

As of yesterday, April 26, there have been 28,474 confirmed Covid-19 deaths in the NYCMA — for a rate of 135 deaths per 100,000 population.

— NYC alone has 165 deaths per 100K
— 25 counties without NYC have 107 deaths per 100K

That 135 per 100K is well beyond Spain (50), Italy (46), France (35), UK (35) and certainly Germany (7).

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Originally Posted by Crovash

Early on I was throwing out some numbers on how devastating this is in my area. Here’s an update (fwiw).

In addition to the 5 boroughs, the NYC metro area encompasses 25 other counties (8 in NY, 13 in NJ, 3 in CT, and 1 in PA)

The total population is 21,000,000 (half of which — roughly 10,500,000 — is in NYC itself).

As of yesterday, April 26, there have been 28,474 confirmed Covid-19 deaths in the NYCMA — for a rate of 135 deaths per 100,000 population.

— NYC alone has 165 deaths per 100K
— 25 counties without NYC have 107 deaths per 100K

That 135 per 100K is well beyond Spain (50), Italy (46), France (35), UK (35) and certainly Germany (7).

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Where are you located?


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Originally Posted by benny01

Got ya. Yeah I'm sure that system is completely taxed at this point.

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More than 25 million people filing...I would imagine so.


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Originally Posted by Zmaster52

Where are you located?

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Just outside of Danbury, CT (Fairfield County).

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Originally Posted by benny01

Yeah, I feel ya. This whole deal was handled poorly. Too much of congress trying to serve too many masters rather than getting the help where it needs to go.

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Like anything from the government, things get complicated and convoluted. To that, add the fact that many small businesses aren't really small businesses. A small business is defined, basically, as a business with 500 employees or less. Doesn't sound that small to me.

Then the franchise issue comes into play…Ruth's Chris qualified for loans probably by the fact that numerous individuals franchisees fall into the under 500 category and qualified. Not sure how the parent company got all that $$$$. If I had to guess, the corp HQ filled out all the forms for the various franchises.

Then you have the single guy that owns multiple small corps for the same type of business (this is common). Guy could own 20 restaurants and have 20 different corporations set up. Real estate people do this quite a bit. Each corporation applies and qualifies.

Then you have the disadvantage of being a small mom and pop organization. Many of them run out of their back pockets. Fast and loose. Terrible record keeping. They see their accountant once a year for taxes (maybe) and guess at everything. When they try to get a loan, they have trouble coming up with the info. Also many small business do not have a real relationship with their bank.

The Paycheck Protection application was open to interpretation. Sort of. Several places seemed to mix up the terms "Mortgage Interest, Rent, Leases" etc. Some took that to mean leases on equipment, vehicles etc. and included that in their amount. Others (including me) took the term lease and rent as "monthly cost for the property" since the two terms were right next to each other and that fit the spirit of the program. (and several items I read said the loans were for salaries and rent). In my opinion (means nothing) these applications that are over-requesting slows down the system for everyone.

To all of that…add the sheer volume of the requests.

Then toss in… the industry that set itself up to help business apply for the loan (for a fee). I get phone calls weekly.

It al makes for a perfect slow response storm.

I applied for the PPP and received funding in about three weeks. My record keeping is excellent and I was not asked to submit anything other than 2 forms that clearly supported what I was requesting. I also have a good relationship with my bank.

I think I was lucky in one way and well prepared in another.

There is another SBA loan out there that I applied for (EIDL Loan Economic Impact Disaster Loan) that is another story completely.I applied 3 times…the first two times the system crashed and I had to start over. The first time took over 4 hours to get halfway through it. The second time the form changed and crashed again. The third time the form completely changed again, took only 15 minutes and got through. I received a reference number so I assumed it is in. Nowhere in any of those three applications was I able to request an amount. I guess someday IO will be told what I am entitled to. Today (over 30 days later) I received conformation on a completely different number. I guess I am alive but I am not optimistic on that one. I envision everything getting back to normal and then two years from now I will get a small check from the SBA who know.

When you see people screaming to re-open the economy, please bear in mind that some people are desperate. The $1,200 (I haven't received mine yet) may pay for food for a few months (and don't tell me it won't) but it won't cover rent/mtge, car pmts, cr cd pmts etc. You can say to put a hold on rent/mtge and other payments but that just means you are asking others to finance your troubles. Whop finances their troubles.

People are not being stupid and care free, many are desperate. For the record, I'm losing my business shirt over this but think re-opening May 1 is too soon (that's Florida'a target date). We will operate on split staff, reduced production etc. until at least May 15 and then re-evaluate.

And I need a hair cut.

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Originally Posted by Zmaster52

lol at least you’ll be able to get social security.

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Not in your 50s

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Originally Posted by Sluggo1

Like anything from the government, things get complicated and convoluted. To that, add the fact that many small businesses aren't really small businesses. A small business is defined, basically, as a business with 500 employees or less. Doesn't sound that small to me.

Then the franchise issue comes into play…Ruth's Chris qualified for loans probably by the fact that numerous individuals franchisees fall into the under 500 category and qualified. Not sure how the parent company got all that $$$$. If I had to guess, the corp HQ filled out all the forms for the various franchises.

Then you have the single guy that owns multiple small corps for the same type of business (this is common). Guy could own 20 restaurants and have 20 different corporations set up. Real estate people do this quite a bit. Each corporation applies and qualifies.

Then you have the disadvantage of being a small mom and pop organization. Many of them run out of their back pockets. Fast and loose. Terrible record keeping. They see their accountant once a year for taxes (maybe) and guess at everything. When they try to get a loan, they have trouble coming up with the info. Also many small business do not have a real relationship with their bank.

The Paycheck Protection application was open to interpretation. Sort of. Several places seemed to mix up the terms "Mortgage Interest, Rent, Leases" etc. Some took that to mean leases on equipment, vehicles etc. and included that in their amount. Others (including me) took the term lease and rent as "monthly cost for the property" since the two terms were right next to each other and that fit the spirit of the program. (and several items I read said the loans were for salaries and rent). In my opinion (means nothing) these applications that are over-requesting slows down the system for everyone.

To all of that…add the sheer volume of the requests.

Then toss in… the industry that set itself up to help business apply for the loan (for a fee). I get phone calls weekly.

It al makes for a perfect slow response storm.

I applied for the PPP and received funding in about three weeks. My record keeping is excellent and I was not asked to submit anything other than 2 forms that clearly supported what I was requesting. I also have a good relationship with my bank.

I think I was lucky in one way and well prepared in another.

There is another SBA loan out there that I applied for (EIDL Loan Economic Impact Disaster Loan) that is another story completely.I applied 3 times…the first two times the system crashed and I had to start over. The first time took over 4 hours to get halfway through it. The second time the form changed and crashed again. The third time the form completely changed again, took only 15 minutes and got through. I received a reference number so I assumed it is in. Nowhere in any of those three applications was I able to request an amount. I guess someday IO will be told what I am entitled to. Today (over 30 days later) I received conformation on a completely different number. I guess I am alive but I am not optimistic on that one. I envision everything getting back to normal and then two years from now I will get a small check from the SBA who know.

When you see people screaming to re-open the economy, please bear in mind that some people are desperate. The $1,200 (I haven't received mine yet) may pay for food for a few months (and don't tell me it won't) but it won't cover rent/mtge, car pmts, cr cd pmts etc. You can say to put a hold on rent/mtge and other payments but that just means you are asking others to finance your troubles. Whop finances their troubles.

People are not being stupid and care free, many are desperate. For the record, I'm losing my business shirt over this but think re-opening May 1 is too soon (that's Florida'a target date). We will operate on split staff, reduced production etc. until at least May 15 and then re-evaluate.

And I need a hair cut.

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Yeah I agree, and to be fair it was a rough deal to put together by any body trying to move at the pace that they were. I've been fortunate that I've been allowed to do business throughout this whole deal. We've(landscapers) actually gotten a little bump because people are spending so much more time confined to their property.

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Originally Posted by Sluggo1

Not in your 50s

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I know, retirement is 65(?) or has it gone up?

Point is, by the time I’m of the age for retirement, social security won’t even exist.


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Originally Posted by benny01

Yeah I agree, and to be fair it was a rough deal to put together by any body trying to move at the pace that they were. I've been fortunate that I've been allowed to do business throughout this whole deal. We've(landscapers) actually gotten a little bump because people are spending so much more time confined to their property.

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One problem I always have with all this crap…any government program…nothing ever seems to happen to the cheaters. Never seems to be much of a penalty.

Universities with endowment funds getting money…Oh OK, they'll send it back. Very magnanimous of them.

Because they got caught…if they weren't caught and an issue made of ut, they all would have kept the money. Same with the restaurant chains.

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Originally Posted by Zmaster52

I know, retirement is 65(?) or has it gone up?

Point is, by the time I’m of the age for retirement, social security won’t even exist.


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Something will be there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sluggo1

One problem I always have with all this crap…any government program…nothing ever seems to happen to the cheaters. Never seems to be much of a penalty.

Universities with endowment funds getting money…Oh OK, they'll send it back. Very magnanimous of them.

Because they got caught…if they weren't caught and an issue made of ut, they all would have kept the money. Same with the restaurant chains.

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Money and in turn plenty of cheaters always has a seat at the table, they protect themselves.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sluggo1

Try to get a job when you are in the 50s

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You want him to go back in time?