COVID-19 Response: An issue that shouldn't be at all political....yet here we are

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Originally Posted by ManRam

China built entire hospitals in 3 days and tested entire cities. But duurrrr they underreported a few numbers and muh "freedoms".

Imagine if America tried like 1/100th as hard.

Here in America our government only flexes its power when an Autozone in Portland is burned down or new oil is discovered in the Middle East/Central America. Not to stave off a pandemic.

Edit: just to get out in front of it: I am not saying anything else about China in this post. Only focusing on Covid. We don't need to steer this further off topic.

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I would be careful in giving China too much credit because one thing that I absolutely believe they did was if they found someone was positive, there's a good chance they would kill them to prevent the spread. And that's not something any civilized society would allow. China would take it to 11 to prevent the spread. I'm all for shutting down inherently congregating institutions as they represent a higher risk of spread than those that aren't. But the methods they would be wiling to go aren't ones I would ever accept.

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Originally Posted by dbroncos78087

I would be careful in giving China too much credit because one thing that I absolutely believe they did was if they found someone was positive, there's a good chance they would kill them to prevent the spread. And that's not something any civilized society would allow. China would take it to 11 to prevent the spread. I'm all for shutting down inherently congregating institutions as they represent a higher risk of spread than those that aren't. But the methods they would be wiling to go aren't ones I would ever accept.

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Any sources for this? Genuine curiosity. It just sounds like speculation.

I'm not saying we should've adopted measures like murdering people with the virus. I'm just saying that, you know...the virus tested every country's government and its ability to handle a crisis and we failed harder than everyone else. It makes people more comfortable to just pin it all on Trump, and obviously he was the worst person at the worst time to be in charge. But on a foundational level, by design, our government is not designed to be effective in these ways. So much of this country not only doesn't expect **** from their government, but they'd think the truly appropriate and robust response to this problem would be evil. Republicans have worked so hard for so long to convince the populace that government is bad. I just don't think we could ever put forth a truly effective response. When have we ever seen a massive government initiative or program in our lifetimes? It's really hard for me to believe that under Hillary we still wouldn't be showing our ***** to the world. We're just a deeply diseased country with an incredibly unproductive government, and that's been the case long before Trump showed up. Rugged individualism baby!

I don't know. Ultimately I just don't care about China. I care about us. Why are people so worried about them all the time? On a more superficial level, America has a long history of making enemies out of nothing to justify our global presence. I get a little worried with how carried away people get with Russia and China (besides jobs-related issues re: China). And just to get ahead of it, I'm not condoning any human rights abuses either...but we aren't the world's police and have even more blood on our hands. We're the imperialists after all, not them. And because of that, I worry whenever Liberals start behaving like JFK and ratcheting up Cold War rhetoric, even as slight as it may be. It just will never not rub me the wrong way. We should be working to improve relations, hard stop. That's not gonna happen any time soon, and it especially won't if Liberals think both countries are the enemy.

Anyways, I'll give every other country more credit than I'll give us. China included.

Who are we to criticize anyone?

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Originally Posted by nastynice

Haha, honestly I read that third line and was like ah hell na, just skimmed thru the rest.

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:facepalm:

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Originally Posted by SpecialFNK

except for the fact that I don't support Trump on everything. I've said this many times, but you keep ignoring it and parroting this nonsense that you for some reason need to believe.

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I didn't say you did, boy genius.

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Originally Posted by Scoots

The thing about Sweden's decision is that other countries made other decisions that had a bearing on Swedens results. If their issue is that their citizenry got lazy then maybe they could have maintained their previous stance and just re-inforced the importance of using more care. I don't know. But I don't have a problem saying I don't care just as you don't have a problem saying you are certain about incredibly complex systems.

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Then if Sweden’s strategy was predicated on others countries responses not being a lockdown, and they knew other countries were going into a lockdown, it was still wrong because they knew what other countries responses would be.

I think “I don’t know” is your slogan, but you have this bad habit of assuming that anything less than 100% is all equal uncertainty.

You don’t know if Sweden’s strategy was good or not with the same degree of confidence that you don’t know if Trump is a Nitrogen breathing alien.

Also, one can be certain an incredibly complex system will fail, a systems complexity is not necessarily a predicator of how difficult it will be to determine its effectiveness. You (and me and everyone else) do this all the time, correctly point out complex systems failing.

Perhaps it’s best to approach this in another way: Sweden has abandoned their plan. No other country thinks it was a good idea. So outside your “all things that may be possible are equally as likely” philosophy, do you have any actual evidence such a strategy is not a bad one, or is the entirety of your uncertainty on its effectiveness reliant on the fact that it could be true in the same way Trump could be a Nitrogen breathing alien?

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Originally Posted by nastynice

Haha, honestly I read that third line and was like ah hell na, just skimmed thru the rest. I didnt purposefully leave something out to be deceptive, lol.

So what is the point of all of this? That your claim was technically correct? Or were you making a bigger point with all this?

My point was the stats dont support the claim that china is lying. That point still stands. These are completely negligible numbers, off by a thousand or so (I think, please forgive me if I'm technically incorrect by some amount), keep in mind we are currently past 250 thousand dead.

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We are currently past 250,000 dead, but we were nowhere close to those numbers when China was lying so even being off by a few a thousand was a much bigger deal.

On February 10, they reported 2,800 new cases that day to the world but internally said there were 5,900 new cases. That’s over 200% higher than their official number. And that was when there were 31,000 cases in the region, meaning just that one day they Misrepresented total cases by 10%. And they were off frequently.

And my point is: you’re wrong that stats don’t support the claim China was under reporting: they did and do.

What you doing is saying because their numbers are technically possible it doesn’t make them suspicious. But if I told you I started running a month back and now I’m running marathons at a 2 hour, 2 minute pace (1 minute off the all-time record), you’d likely be skeptical. Now, my run time is technically possible, and I have been practicing extremely diligently for a month and you’d expect to see some improvement, it’s still an unrealistic time, even if technically possible.


My point is everyone else was able to see their numbers were under reported and you didn’t, the only question is why you were not able to see what everyone else could.

I think that goes back to your weird adulation of China.

Don't care about China.

I do care about Nancy Pelosi.

And she remains absolutely out of touch and utterly tone deaf. I just for the life of me will never understand why anyone thinks she represents the type of leadership we need.

I have no clue why so much bother about China or Sweden. Who gives a sweet crapola?

With 1/21 of the world’s population, the US continues to chalk up about 1/3 of the world’s confirmed Covid-19 deaths. Now maybe other countries are not reporting as we are, but 275,000 deaths is 275,000 deaths, and that’s not counting the collateral damage we have not even begun to tally.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

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Originally Posted by Crovash

Deflect to liquor stores all you want; that is not the crux of the SCOTUS decision.

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Actually it somewhat is. If liquor stores, indoor dining, box stores, were all regulated as non essential then the church would have much less ground to stand on when making their request.

The fact that these other places are open is probably the main basis of their case.

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Originally Posted by valade16

On February 10, they reported 2,800 new cases that day to the world but internally said there were 5,900 new cases. That’s over 200% higher than their official number. And that was when there were 31,000 cases in the region, meaning just that one day they Misrepresented total cases by 10%. And they were off frequently.

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Ah, so you looked at that 2,900 and figured it looked suspicious? But that 5,900 doesn't?

Any basis upon which these suspicions of yours are built upon?

At one point china was positively diagnosing patients from simply chest x ray and nothing more. They felt they had found a "hallmark sign", which later ended up not being the case and they change their method of diagnoses accordingly.

I'm sure it equates to a little funniness in the stats, but that's expected during a pandemic.

If you feel like you got something to sink your teeth, then go for it, but I'm telling you you dont. If it's about being right or wrong, you're right, go ahead take that award. But these arguments you're bringing forth are SO MUCH weaker than you realize?

Early in the pandemic we just assumed the true positive to be about 5-6x the number of reported positive. But china missing a few thousand cases is supposed to make any sort of difference.

I just think you're buying a garbage story and I advise against it.

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Originally Posted by nastynice

Actually it somewhat is. If liquor stores, indoor dining, box stores, were all regulated as non essential then the church would have much less ground to stand on when making their request.

The fact that these other places are open is probably the main basis of their case.

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No, the basis of the decision is the first amendment* (that’s what crux means). Without the amendment, the case — which indeed identified liquor stores in their argument — is dead in the water.

From The Federalist: “The per curium opinion determined that New York’s targeted responses run in direct opposition to the First Amendment, stating, “Even in a pandemic, the Constitution cannot be put away and forgotten. The restrictions at issue here, by effectively barring many from attending religious services, strike at the very heart of the First Amendment’s guarantee of religious liberty.”

https://thefederalist.com/2020/11/26...e-in-new-york/

* “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.”

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Originally Posted by nastynice

Ah, so you looked at that 2,900 and figured it looked suspicious? But that 5,900 doesn't?

Any basis upon which these suspicions of yours are built upon?

At one point china was positively diagnosing patients from simply chest x ray and nothing more. They felt they had found a "hallmark sign", which later ended up not being the case and they change their method of diagnoses accordingly.

I'm sure it equates to a little funniness in the stats, but that's expected during a pandemic.

If you feel like you got something to sink your teeth, then go for it, but I'm telling you you dont. If it's about being right or wrong, you're right, go ahead take that award. But these arguments you're bringing forth are SO MUCH weaker than you realize?

Early in the pandemic we just assumed the true positive to be about 5-6x the number of reported positive. But china missing a few thousand cases is supposed to make any sort of difference.

I just think you're buying a garbage story and I advise against it.

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No, I looked at how their numbers were low for every day. It’s not that they were off by 200% on February 10th, it’s that they were off by up to 200% every day. I looked at that coupled with the actual Doctor who blew the whistle on this saying the government was trying to cover it up. I also looked at multiple eyewitnesses from the area saying the totals were far lower than the government was saying. I then looked at US intelligence that said China was not providing accurate numbers. I then looked at China’s history of covering up and downplaying anything that makes China look bad (like them at the time denying the existence of the Ughur camps).

In short EVERYTHING, absolutely every piece of information pointed to their numbers being wrong. It’s not like I was Nostradamus here, literally everyone but you said their numbers were u def reported. The oddity here was you not being able to see it given the totality of evidence all pointing to the same thing.

But classic Nasty, “you’re right but that doesn’t mean anything”. I guess it’s not that surprising you couldn’t see what we all could, evidence is not nearly as compelling as your opinion.

Why do you think everyone here was able to see what was true and you were not? I think it’s because your love of China blinded you. You simply cannot believe they could ever do wrong. Your devotion to them actually exceeds Soecial’s devotion to Trump and it’s really bizarre.

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Originally Posted by valade16

No, I looked at how their numbers were low for every day. It’s not that they were off by 200% on February 10th, it’s that they were off by up to 200% every day. I looked at that coupled with the actual Doctor who blew the whistle on this saying the government was trying to cover it up. I also looked at multiple eyewitnesses from the area saying the totals were far lower than the government was saying. I then looked at US intelligence that said China was not providing accurate numbers. I then looked at China’s history of covering up and downplaying anything that makes China look bad (like them at the time denying the existence of the Ughur camps).

In short EVERYTHING, absolutely every piece of information pointed to their numbers being wrong. It’s not like I was Nostradamus here, literally everyone but you said their numbers were u def reported. The oddity here was you not being able to see it given the totality of evidence all pointing to the same thing.

But classic Nasty, “you’re right but that doesn’t mean anything”. I guess it’s not that surprising you couldn’t see what we all could, evidence is not nearly as compelling as your opinion.

Why do you think everyone here was able to see what was true and you were not? I think it’s because your love of China blinded you. You simply cannot believe they could ever do wrong. Your devotion to them actually exceeds Soecial’s devotion to Trump and it’s really bizarre.

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You're just not comprehending the fact that places have inconsistencies during a pandemic. You are taking normal and expected inconsistencies and trying to make a story out of it.

Our country has the very same inconsistencies, under reporting, over reporting, changing criteria of diagnosis, missed diagnosis, etc.

Your very own article mentiond that there is no evidence that any of this was done purposefully or maliciously. So essentially, this seems to be pointing out expected inconsistencies, not some purposeful tactic to deceive the world.
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Originally Posted by nastynice

You're just not comprehending the fact that places have inconsistencies during a pandemic. You are taking normal and expected inconsistencies and trying to make a story out of it.

Our country has the very same inconsistencies, under reporting, over reporting, changing criteria of diagnosis, missed diagnosis, etc.

Your very own article mentiond that there is no evidence that any of this was done purposefully or maliciously. So essentially, this seems to be pointing out expected inconsistencies, not some purposeful tactic to deceive the world.

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No, you’re not comprehending this is not the same thing. The US has reporting inconsistencies, under reporting, etc. but we did not have an actual number of cases or deaths and report a different number, Chinese officials did.

These are not normal inconsistencies of a miscount, this was they knew the count and gave a different number anyway.

It specifically said Wuhan officials intentionally under reported fearing punishment for high numbers, which is expected of authoritarian countries where the populace is afraid of government. It is exactly what happened in the USSR when Chernobyl blew, the plant managers immediately tried to downplay it and cover up its severity.

China was not nearly as forthcoming and helpful as you Believe. And that in no way excuses the US, we have had probably the worst Covid response of any nation on earth (like, legitimately the worst). But China downplayed and tried to cover Covid up and it was wrong.

Notice I didn’t bring up that China had a massive increase in Flu during December (20 times normal yearly rates) as evidence they were covering up Covid or under reporting, because that is exactly the sort of inconsistencies you’d expect trying to identify a novel virus.

So yes, I understand the difference. But there’s a difference between mid diagnosing it as the flu because you don’t know, and knowing the number of infected and reporting a lower number.