COVID-19 Response: An issue that shouldn't be at all political....yet here we are

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Originally Posted by spliff(TONE)

That's not true. It's more like you bought in to China's propaganda because you've willingly let yourself be brainwashed by them and/or are just absolutely incompetent when it comes to understanding the media you consume.

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What was their propaganda? That they locked down? They shut all highways in and out of Wuhan? They disinfected entire city blocks if one case of corona came up? They had public service announcements teaching their residents how to deal with the virus, including opening windows in your house for numerous hours every day for ventilation?

Is this the propaganda I bought into?

Because that's actually called science, not propaganda. If you went to school to learn about epidemics, you would know this.

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Originally Posted by valade16

First, yes you did argue China's numbers were not incorrect. And if you're so good at looking at data and we are all so bad at it, how come we all looked at the data and came to the right conclusion and you looked at the data and came to the wrong one?

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Awesome, let's talk about this. What did you see in the data that told you china was lying?

I must suck at this, so teach me..

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Originally Posted by valade16

I do not deny the massive increase in deaths of despair and economic impact. I deny that these massive increases are even approaching the number of deaths or impact from coronavirus.

This is a common conservative argument that the ancillary effects of covid response are worse than the covid response, therefore we shouldn't enact any covid responses.

I agree, that there eventually comes a point where the effects are worse than covid, but I don't believe we are anywhere near that point currently. For instance, in order for suicides to approach covid deaths, we'd have to see suicides increase by near 600%.

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I didn't say they are approaching the number of corona deaths. The problem comes in where the balance is not that the balance is entirely the other way.

So in some groups suicide rates are half way to your 600%, also drug related deaths are up a similar amount in some groups, so I suspect it's closer than most people think, but also there is an assumption in what you are saying that a 30% reduction in corona restriction would result in a linear increase on one side and a smaller decrease on the other side.

The long term effects of the personal and economic damage are likely going to have a much longer lifespan than this virus does so the death toll is not a "this year" sort of a thing. I've seen some estimates that the economic impact may be a decades long recovery while the vaccine may end corona as a major concern next month.

I know a few sociologists psychologists who work in the drug abuse field and they are experts and they are watching people turn down roads that they know will lead to their eventual death because of the decisions being made by governments today, and their governments are ignoring their pleas (California and Washington state). Oregon just passed a change in their laws that allows them to move money from enforcement to helping people but it's gotten so bad there that it's not uncommon for regular non-drug using people to be carrying around narcan so they can maybe save someone's life overdosing on the street.

Corona is a disaster and a nightmare no question, but it's going to leave in it's wake another massive disaster and nightmare and it's not getting enough coverage, and people saying it's a conservative issue is total bull ****.

The reality is that we don't know what the effects will be by making other choices. I don't see how thinking about those things

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Originally Posted by valade16

You know your argument about what people know is in trouble if you're invoking the "we can't know anything with 100% certainty" argument.

Yes, Fingerbang absolutely knew Trump had received oxygen, that is precisely why he danced around answering the direct question "do you believe Trump received oxygen, yes or no?"

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He may have been dancing to troll you, or he may have believed what he was saying. You don't know.

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Originally Posted by spliff(TONE)

Nice. I hope it helps her be much more comfortable when going out in public.

What I meant to imply was that just because someone has a compromised immune system and is claustrophobic doesn't mean that they can't hang with wearing a mask when appropriate. The former is basically irrelevant, while the latter is fully dependent on how severe the claustrophobia is. I hated to and basically refused to wear a mask at a particularly dirty and dusty job I had for about a month but have zero issues with wearing one when I'm not the only person being affected by my mask wearing (or lack thereof).

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The stand off mask is likely far less effective than the regular ones both for her and those around her, so I'm reluctant to encourage it. It's a balancing act.

Agreed.

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Originally Posted by valade16

It's not that, I really don't like when people try to be politicians and dance around an answer they know to be true.

It's why many provide non-answers (as you delineated above).

You are a great example of this.

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Except I didn't dance around an answer I know to be true, I gave my reason for believing it to be false.

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Originally Posted by nastynice

I know my half white friend, 80% of the back and forth here are semantics.

I'm sure your Mexican half recognizes what I'm saying...

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racist.

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Originally Posted by Scoots

He may have been dancing to troll you, or he may have believed what he was saying. You don't know.

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I don't know in the same way I don't know whether Trump is a nitrogen breathing alien and his hair is a complicated oxygen filter to keep him from inhaling oxygen.

I'm still extremely certain.

There is a short story by Ray Bradbury about an astronaut who goes insane questioning what is real to the point where he begins to doubt whether he has hands or feet when he's not looking at them, whether anyone is real unless he is seeing them at that moment, etc.

Seems like one you would enjoy.

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Originally Posted by nastynice

Awesome, let's talk about this. What did you see in the data that told you china was lying?

I must suck at this, so teach me...

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The fact that their death rate was drastically lower than similar circumstances and outbreaks in every other country during that time. It was fairly self evident the numbers were low.

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Originally Posted by Scoots

The stand off mask is likely far less effective than the regular ones both for her and those around her, so I'm reluctant to encourage it. It's a balancing act.

Agreed.

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I guess I don't actually know...but how are face shields viewed, as far as acceptable face coverings?

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Originally Posted by Scoots

I didn't say they are approaching the number of corona deaths. The problem comes in where the balance is not that the balance is entirely the other way.

So in some groups suicide rates are half way to your 600%, also drug related deaths are up a similar amount in some groups, so I suspect it's closer than most people think, but also there is an assumption in what you are saying that a 30% reduction in corona restriction would result in a linear increase on one side and a smaller decrease on the other side.

The long term effects of the personal and economic damage are likely going to have a much longer lifespan than this virus does so the death toll is not a "this year" sort of a thing. I've seen some estimates that the economic impact may be a decades long recovery while the vaccine may end corona as a major concern next month.

I know a few sociologists psychologists who work in the drug abuse field and they are experts and they are watching people turn down roads that they know will lead to their eventual death because of the decisions being made by governments today, and their governments are ignoring their pleas (California and Washington state). Oregon just passed a change in their laws that allows them to move money from enforcement to helping people but it's gotten so bad there that it's not uncommon for regular non-drug using people to be carrying around narcan so they can maybe save someone's life overdosing on the street.

Corona is a disaster and a nightmare no question, but it's going to leave in it's wake another massive disaster and nightmare and it's not getting enough coverage, and people saying it's a conservative issue is total bull ****.

The reality is that we don't know what the effects will be by making other choices. I don't see how thinking about those things

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And you are making a massive assumption that corona has no long lasting effects despite doctors warning of potential long term health effects. It's also a massive assumption that a vaccine will eliminate covid altogether, and many doctors are saying it's possible we will need several rounds of vaccines and even then covid might become a seasonal disease like the flu.

It is at this point that I would say based on what you've written it appears your believe these problems outweigh the covid safety measures. Is that an accurate synoposis of your opinion or no?

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Originally Posted by valade16

I don't know in the same way I don't know whether Trump is a nitrogen breathing alien and his hair is a complicated oxygen filter to keep him from inhaling oxygen.

I'm still extremely certain.

There is a short story by Ray Bradbury about an astronaut who goes insane questioning what is real to the point where he begins to doubt whether he has hands or feet when he's not looking at them, whether anyone is real unless he is seeing them at that moment, etc.

Seems like one you would enjoy.

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I've read it, and Descartes :)

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Originally Posted by SiteWolf

Except I didn't dance around an answer I know to be true, I gave my reason for believing it to be false.

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I don't know the specifics of this church debate so I can't comment on that specific instance.

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Originally Posted by SiteWolf

I guess I don't actually know...but how are face shields viewed, as far as acceptable face coverings?

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Socially they meet the requirement of caring about other people and following the rules while also not really working as well as standards masks. If people see someone wearing something on their face that's all they need to feel better.

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Originally Posted by valade16

And you are making a massive assumption that corona has no long lasting effects despite doctors warning of potential long term health effects. It's also a massive assumption that a vaccine will eliminate covid altogether, and many doctors are saying it's possible we will need several rounds of vaccines and even then covid might become a seasonal disease like the flu.

It is at this point that I would say based on what you've written it appears your believe these problems outweigh the covid safety measures. Is that an accurate synoposis of your opinion or no?

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Yes, it's possible or even probable people will suffer the remainder of their lives from being infected. But that is going to be a tiny population, and it will theoretically be finite if the vaccine works. And I didn't assume anything, I said "may end corona" not "will end corona". Semantics matter buddy :)

It's not that they outweigh them, but the coverage and opinion seems to be bent away from the despair issues too far. Like you saying that talking about drug, suicide, and economical related deaths is somehow a conservative viewpoint.

How is it conservative to care about people's lives? Aren't we better people by caring about everybody?