COVID-19 Response: An issue that shouldn't be at all political....yet here we are

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10-04-2021, 07:11 PM
dbroncos78087

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyc77

I personally fly about a few times a year and I've never seen anyone knifed or slashed during a flight though. I haven't read about such an event either.

The last time i read about someone trying to cause havoc on an airplane was the shoe bomber.

In their internal testing, people were able to get 97% of banned items through. It’s a pretty widely reported number. The fact of the matter is that by and large there hasn’t been a will to do an attack like that.
10-04-2021, 07:59 PM
joeyc77

Quote:

Originally Posted by valade16

Well this is a bit of a misnomer. It was an expansion of governmental powers relative to what we all agreed they were at the time, but historically such governmental powers have increased or decreased with the times.

Consider stop and frisk was considered an expansion of governmental powers, however in WWII we literally interned the Japanese via Executive Order despite no probable cause of crimes, etc.

So while it was an expansion of what we believed the government could do in 2001, it was drastically less power than what the Government has done many times in the past.

The question is do the ends justify the means? Even using WWII and those expansion of powers, as harsh and misfortunate as they were, there was not another pearl harbor type attack since and last i checked, we won wwii. If you could go back to the 1940s, would you support putting Japanese in internment camps and dropping two nuclear bombs on Japan?

My point is, america is built different than other countries. However, the more power, we the people, give to our government, the more power the government desires. Rarely, if the government gains power willingly is it given back or lessened over time.
10-04-2021, 08:02 PM
joeyc77

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbroncos78087

In their internal testing, people were able to get 97% of banned items through. It’s a pretty widely reported number. The fact of the matter is that by and large there hasn’t been a will to do an attack like that.

How do you know there's not someone wanting to perform a terrorist attack the scale of 9/11 but doesn't because of security measures? Is there a poll of terrorists im unaware of? Taking a weapon on a plane is vastly different than killing someone with one while aboard a flight.
10-04-2021, 08:13 PM
valade16

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyc77

The question is do the ends justify the means? Even using WWII and those expansion of powers, as harsh and misfortunate as they were, there was not another pearl harbor type attack since and last i checked, we won wwii. If you could go back to the 1940s, would you support putting Japanese in internment camps and dropping two nuclear bombs on Japan?

My point is, america is built different than other countries. However, the more power, we the people, give to our government, the more power the government desires. Rarely, if the government gains power willingly is it given back or lessened over time.

Well I think you're using correlations that aren't there. Did the TSA actually prevent any terrorist attacks or were there no terrorist attacks and the TSA? Did interning the Japanese actually prevent any future Japanese attacks or were there no attacks and the Internment camps? The evidence that either did what you're crediting them with is scant.

As for the powers, I again don't think that's true. The Government doesn't always hold on to the power. The US gave up Martial Law during the Civil War willingly, we gave up the ability to intern people without just cause after WWII.

Heck, this very government that we are arguing will never give up the powers bestowed on it during the pandemic gave up the very same powers during the previous pandemic. During the Spanish flu we had lockdowns, mask mandates, mandatory vaccinations, etc. We had everything people are claiming will never go away and will lead to Fascism and surprise, it went away and we didn't become fascist.

Almost as if those measures were in response to a pandemic killing large amounts of Americans and not some sinister attempt at taking over the country...
10-04-2021, 08:15 PM
dbroncos78087

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyc77

How do you know there's not someone wanting to perform a terrorist attack the scale of 9/11 but doesn't because of security measures? Is there a poll of terrorists im unaware of? Taking a weapon on a plane is vastly different than killing someone with one while aboard a flight.

Quite honestly the fact that it hasn’t happened. I don’t trust the TSA to run laundry to the dry cleaners.
10-04-2021, 09:28 PM
natepro

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyc77

I mean there hasn't been another 9/11 since so didn't we sort of reach "hers immunity" as far as terrorist attacks are concerned?

Fort Hood? Boston Marathon bombing? San Bernardino? There hasn't been another 9/11, but there have been multiple attacks.
10-04-2021, 10:23 PM
spliff(TONE)

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyc77

I personally fly about a few times a year and I've never seen anyone knifed or slashed during a flight though.

This microscopic sample size of yours is meaningless.
10-04-2021, 10:30 PM
dbroncsinmo

Quote:

Originally Posted by spliff(TONE)

This microscopic sample size of yours is meaningless.

I'm on ~150 planes/year. I've never seen it happen either.
10-04-2021, 10:52 PM
valade16

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbroncsinmo

I'm on ~150 planes/year. I've never seen it happen either.

That is a lot of travel. I've had to travel a lot for the Army but never that much in a year.
10-04-2021, 11:31 PM
dbroncsinmo

Quote:

Originally Posted by valade16

That is a lot of travel. I've had to travel a lot for the Army but never that much in a year.

Yeah...it's a lot but I have been doing it since shortly after college. It just becomes normal at some point. I honestly feel weird when I'm not traveling. Covid threw my routine in to a massive funknfor a bit. Lol.
10-04-2021, 11:57 PM
joeyc77

Quote:

Originally Posted by dbroncos78087

Quite honestly the fact that it hasn’t happened. I don’t trust the TSA to run laundry to the dry cleaners.

But you trust the government, or one side of the government, with our healthcare. Weird.
10-05-2021, 12:00 AM
joeyc77

Quote:

Originally Posted by spliff(TONE)

This microscopic sample size of yours is meaningless.

That's why i also said i haven't read about someone being stabbed on an airplane since 9/11. Have you? If so, please enlighten us. I mean it would be your first comment of value to this forum but i digress.
10-05-2021, 12:01 AM
joeyc77

Quote:

Originally Posted by natepro

Fort Hood? Boston Marathon bombing? San Bernardino? There hasn't been another 9/11, but there have been multiple attacks.

Breakthrough cases...
10-05-2021, 12:04 AM
spliff(TONE)

Quote:

Originally Posted by joeyc77

That's why i also said i haven't read about someone being stabbed on an airplane since 9/11. Have you? If so, please enlighten us. I mean it would be your first comment of value to this forum but i digress.

I haven't. Never did prior to 911 either (though I would guess it has very likely happened both before and after). What's your point?

I sure hope you find this comment valuable. Your opinion means the world to me.
10-05-2021, 12:09 AM
joeyc77

Quote:

Originally Posted by valade16

Well I think you're using correlations that aren't there. Did the TSA actually prevent any terrorist attacks or were there no terrorist attacks and the TSA? Did interning the Japanese actually prevent any future Japanese attacks or were there no attacks and the Internment camps? The evidence that either did what you're crediting them with is scant.

As for the powers, I again don't think that's true. The Government doesn't always hold on to the power. The US gave up Martial Law during the Civil War willingly, we gave up the ability to intern people without just cause after WWII.

Heck, this very government that we are arguing will never give up the powers bestowed on it during the pandemic gave up the very same powers during the previous pandemic. During the Spanish flu we had lockdowns, mask mandates, mandatory vaccinations, etc. We had everything people are claiming will never go away and will lead to Fascism and surprise, it went away and we didn't become fascist.

Almost as if those measures were in response to a pandemic killing large amounts of Americans and not some sinister attempt at taking over the country...

As far as internment camps go, i believe the prisoners in Gitmo would likely disagree. We also has a former president attempting to ban travel from certain foreign nations in the name of national security. Actually, we had two presidents attempt it if you count jimmy carter.

I have no idea on the effectiveness of the tsa or internment camps. Im guessing no one does. All i know is we haven't had another pearl harbor or 9/11 since those measures were taken. All i know for certain are the results. So again i ask, knowing the results do those ends, justify the means? Would you give up internment camps, bombing japan, wars in iraq and Afghanistan, tsa, spying on US citizens, etc if you knew there would be similar attacks?