2020 Offseason Thread

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Originally Posted by Coach100

The first part of your response is way off base. I never said Whitehair was bad or even mediocre. I certainly never said anything about Olin. I simply said that this is a reflection on the PFF “grading” system. Maybe I should have said “a possible reflection” earlier. To throw in anything suggesting any player - Cody, Olin, etc - did not reflect my original comments at all.

I understand that a variety of factors and players go into a productive run game. I also don’t think it can be overlooked that CHI was so bad at running up the middle while maintaining well graded players that directly effect that outcome. I even offered up that maybe Whitehair is doing his job and the lack of results are on others.

As for the my “lazy argument” - how is looking at other factors/stats in conjunction with PFF to judge them lazy? Lazy is simply taking what they say as gospel or totally discarding it. No one can refute that PFF uses subjective human judgement to create their rankings. That inevitably leads to missteps.

“How can linemen on a poor performing line be graded well by PFF?” I think this is exactly the kind of discussion people should have about PFF’s performance at rating performance. I am not saying I am right - I simply gave my opinion on potential flaws in their grading (ie - over-valuing pass blocking v run-blocking at a time when many people value passing over running) in conjunction with supporting stats.


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I don't get how you weren't insinuating that Whitehair is bad. You used his positive grade, despite how bad our middle run game is, as an argument against Whitehair and PFF's grading system. The implication being that he shouldn't be getting the positive grades he's had. In other words, that Whitehair isn't good and that PFF's system is bad.

It's lazy because it's an incomplete argument. It's as simple as Bears middle run game bad -> Whitehair bad -> PFF's system bad for grading Whitehair positively. As you're now admitting to, there are several other factors at hand here that could explain a poor run game than just that Whitehair is a bad blocker, or even just a bad run blocker. Without looking further into the context of those grades, it's nothing more than a claim or theory. One could also make a claim using the same stat that Olin Kruetz was obviously a terrible run blocker and ultimately, highly overrated.

Besides, PFF didn't grade Whitehair very well last year, which was the first year in awhile where our line was really that bad. They weren't great in 2018 either, mind you, but pretty middle of the road (above average pass blocking, poor run blocking).

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Originally Posted by La_bibbers

I don't get how you weren't insinuating that Whitehair is bad. You used his positive grade, despite how bad our middle run game is, as an argument against Whitehair and PFF's grading system. The implication being that he shouldn't be getting the positive grades he's had. In other words, that Whitehair isn't good and that PFF's system is bad.

It's lazy because it's an incomplete argument. It's as simple as Bears middle run game bad -> Whitehair bad -> PFF's system bad for grading Whitehair positively. As you're now admitting to, there are several other factors at hand here that could explain a poor run game than just that Whitehair is a bad blocker, or even just a bad run blocker. Without looking further into the context of those grades, it's nothing more than a claim or theory. One could also make a claim using the same stat that Olin Kruetz was obviously a terrible run blocker and ultimately, highly overrated.

Besides, PFF didn't grade Whitehair very well last year, which was the first year in awhile where our line was really that bad. They weren't great in 2018 either, mind you, but pretty middle of the road (above average pass blocking, poor run blocking).

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Again, saying that PFFs grading is flawed is not an indictment on the player. It doesn’t matter how many times you try and say that is what I said - I never said it. Period. I even acknowledged that Whitehair could be doing things right and the PFF grade was fair. I also acknowledged that it could be something else - ie: over-valuing pass protection. You made the leap that because I questioned PFF’s grading that I was insinuating something about Whitehair; I wasn’t.

I could also ask why, if Whitehair is a top 10 C, did he all of a sudden become an almost bottom-barrel starter in the PFF rankings? Was it just a bad year for Cody? Which player should CHI count on moving forward - 2018 or 2019 Cody? Was his grade impacted by the people around him in a negative way? If so, why wasn’t that true in other years? Or was it? If the play of those around him negatively impacts his numbers, are those stats a true indication of individual player’s performance? Maybe those numbers accurately reflect his play each year as an individual? Are there any other stats that can be looked at to help view the PFF grade and it’s validity? This conversation can be had for almost any player at any position and it is meant to judge PFF by examining players, not to judge players based on PFFs accuracy.

And I love how trying to have a conversation about the flaws of PFF and using Whitehair as an example is lazy. I am trying to have a larger, more broad conversation about PFF grades v other statistics. It isn’t lazy at all. I am asking for input/analysis. Heck, I am not even beholden to the idea that PFF is wrong. Pointing out that there are multiple factors in a stat like “inside run game production” is a totally valid argument - one I agree with. I didn’t need it pointed out to me just because I didn’t include it in my first post, but I acknowledge that you are correct with that analysis. It also doesn’t totally clarify why Whitehair - or any other player - receives a good/bad PFF grade when the unit they directly impact is so bad.


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Originally Posted by Coach100

Again, saying that PFFs grading is flawed is not an indictment on the player. It doesn’t matter how many times you try and say that is what I said - I never said it. Period. I even acknowledged that Whitehair could be doing things right and the PFF grade was fair. I also acknowledged that it could be something else - ie: over-valuing pass protection. You made the leap that because I questioned PFF’s grading that I was insinuating something about Whitehair; I wasn’t.

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Your post:

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Originally Posted by Coach100

I see that info and wonder how a guy like Whitehair is graded so well by PFF. I mean, doesn’t it draw some question to the “advanced” rankings? If you play C and your team can’t run the ball up the gut, that has to be a noticeable negative to your grade.


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Explain how that is not A) An indictment on Whitehair and B) on PFF. I'll even quote the rest of your posts below, and you show me where you extended any of the olive branches you're claiming to have made. Particularly where you say that PFF is doing anything right? I'll even bold every criticism, good or bad, of PFF that you make:

Post 2:

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Originally Posted by Coach100

That’s my point. I think it shows flaws in PFF grading.

How can Whitehair be graded 11 & 9 when the run game up the middle is so bad? He would have to be off the charts good in pass blocking to be a top 10 Center while be part of one of the worst run games in his area.

This tells me that run coming is undervalued in comparison to pass blocking being overvalued by PFF. That, or Whitehair was making blocks and creating holes that the RB were totally missing.

I am not trying to rag on Cody. I have always had issues with stats that require grading - they are subjective. As soon as subjectivity is involved, so is human bias and error. I think PFF has a place in statistics, but people also need to be honest about its issues and limitations.

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This is the closest you get where all you say is "he's opening holes and the RBs just aren't seeing the holes." But to me, it's pretty obviously sarcastic. Like, "Someone either took the hammer or it got up and walked away"

Post 3:

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Originally Posted by Coach100

The first part of your response is way off base. I never said Whitehair was bad or even mediocre. I certainly never said anything about Olin. I simply said that this is a reflection on the PFF “grading” system. Maybe I should have said “a possible reflection” earlier. To throw in anything suggesting any player - Cody, Olin, etc - did not reflect my original comments at all.

I understand that a variety of factors and players go into a productive run game. I also don’t think it can be overlooked that CHI was so bad at running up the middle while maintaining well graded players that directly effect that outcome. I even offered up that maybe Whitehair is doing his job and the lack of results are on others.

As for the my “lazy argument” - how is looking at other factors/stats in conjunction with PFF to judge them lazy? Lazy is simply taking what they say as gospel or totally discarding it. No one can refute that PFF uses subjective human judgement to create their rankings. That inevitably leads to missteps.

“How can linemen on a poor performing line be graded well by PFF?” I think this is exactly the kind of discussion people should have about PFF’s performance at rating performance. I am not saying I am right - I simply gave my opinion on potential flaws in their grading (ie - over-valuing pass blocking v run-blocking at a time when many people value passing over running) in conjunction with supporting stats

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Again, where did you say Cody was doing his job? Other than that one brief comment about how the RBs must just be missing the holes?

And again, tell me where you said anything even close to the idea that PFF could be right? Or even a positive compliment towards them? on here? As for the rest of your post:

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Originally Posted by Coach100

I could also ask why, if Whitehair is a top 10 C, did he all of a sudden become an almost bottom-barrel starter in the PFF rankings? Was it just a bad year for Cody? Which player should CHI count on moving forward - 2018 or 2019 Cody? Was his grade impacted by the people around him in a negative way? If so, why wasn’t that true in other years? Or was it? If the play of those around him negatively impacts his numbers, are those stats a true indication of individual player’s performance? Maybe those numbers accurately reflect his play each year as an individual? Are there any other stats that can be looked at to help view the PFF grade and it’s validity? This conversation can be had for almost any player at any position and it is meant to judge PFF by examining players, not to judge players based on PFFs accuracy.

And I love how trying to have a conversation about the flaws of PFF and using Whitehair as an example is lazy. I am trying to have a larger, more broad conversation about PFF grades v other statistics. It isn’t lazy at all. I am asking for input/analysis. Heck, I am not even beholden to the idea that PFF is wrong. Pointing out that there are multiple factors in a stat like “inside run game production” is a totally valid argument - one I agree with. I didn’t need it pointed out to me just because I didn’t include it in my first post, but I acknowledge that you are correct with that analysis. It also doesn’t totally clarify why Whitehair - or any other player - receives a good/bad PFF grade when the unit they directly impact is so bad.

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I would say it's likely that yes, Cody had a bad year, but it's also possible he regressed. Part of it probably has to do with him starting the year at guard, where he graded really poorly IIRC.

Anyway, I'm not trying to be a dick here. I just genuinely don't see where you're making a lot of these claims that you're saying you have. If you'd just left things open-ended, like "I wonder if this is a problem with PFF, who have graded Whitehair favorably most of his career." Then I wouldn't have an issue with it. But again, your original post:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Coach100

I see that info and wonder how a guy like Whitehair is graded so well by PFF. I mean, doesn’t it draw some question to the “advanced” rankings? If you play C and your team can’t run the ball up the gut, that has to be a noticeable negative to your grade.


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comes across pretty critical both of Whitehair and of PFF for grading him highly. With that said, I'll take your word for it that it isn't your intention.

https://twitter.com/chisportupdates/...712550401?s=21


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https://twitter.com/movethesticks/st...311275521?s=21


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the last post on the bears forum was a week ago? hope everyone is safe out there in the world. 2020 is the craziest year i've lived through that's for sure

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Originally Posted by hester23fan4va

the last post on the bears forum was a week ago? hope everyone is safe out there in the world. 2020 is the craziest year i've lived through that's for sure

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Definitely.

Sports feel so inconsequential right now.

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Originally Posted by hester23fan4va

the last post on the bears forum was a week ago? hope everyone is safe out there in the world. 2020 is the craziest year i've lived through that's for sure

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and we are only 5 months into this year. (6 if u count the 1 day into June) This year is crazy.

It was nice to see some posts in here. I hope you all are doing well. Bear down.

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https://twitter.com/aaronjreiss/stat...388589058?s=21


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I'm still thinking we should be bringing in a veteran running back on a one yr.

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Originally Posted by Jones-in

I'm still thinking we should be bringing in a veteran running back on a one yr.

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Ahh yes, the 1 year vet backup RB.

Chester Taylor, Marion Barber, Michael Ford, Jacquizz Rodgers, Mike Davis.

Yeah that always works out so well for the Bears.

/sarcasm

Anyway, just being snarky, and I actually liked Marion Barber even with the infamous terrible run out of bounds against Denver, but yeah I really don't care who the backup RB is.

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Originally Posted by La_bibbers

Ahh yes, the 1 year vet backup RB.

Chester Taylor, Marion Barber, Michael Ford, Jacquizz Rodgers, Mike Davis.

Yeah that always works out so well for the Bears.

/sarcasm

Anyway, just being snarky, and I actually liked Marion Barber even with the infamous terrible run out of bounds against Denver, but yeah I really don't care who the backup RB is.

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As soon as I read Barber, I thought of the Denver game.

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https://twitter.com/cemma670/status/...890299394?s=21


https://twitter.com/cemma670/status/...490368001?s=21


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https://twitter.com/chisportupdates/...527059968?s=21


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