Kobe vs Lebron: Who is the better player?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ldawg

https://larrybrownsports.com/basketb...-lebron/495983

Giannis Antetokounmpo Thought it was going to be easy with Lebron was out the way. Well Raps won. So 76ers, Bucks, Raps, Boston. One of these teams should go to the finals 8 straight times now that lebron is out the way. At the very least 4. Again it’s not as easy as it seems. It still stands. Is it that the east is weak or Lebron was just better than most? While the west did had 1 or 2 stronger teams no single player from the west would have done 8 straight trips.

---

You can’t argue against Lebron’s 8 straight finals appearances. It’s one of those records that won’t be touched.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by More-Than-Most

short sighted as usual...

omg he played in the east but lets ignore that had he played in the west he would likely have had better players around him over welp those cavs teams all career long before he left to the heat... he played in the east with no talent... imagine ******** on the easy but ignoring how awful lebrons supporting cast was out east and trying to justify him not playing out west but ignoring him likely having a better team out west nomatter the circumstance.


we get it kobe... you are trying to keep your legacy intact and it is... you were carried by shaq and have 5 rings when you should have 2 while being a chucker and a top 8-11 player who cant touch lebron.

---

The teams he won a championship team were highly talented so what you're saying doesn't apply to those teams. As for the other Cavs teams, sure, if he played out west he would have better team and with those teams it's very unlikely he would've made the finals 8 consecutive times in the west.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bostonjorge

You can’t argue against Lebron’s 8 straight finals appearances. It’s one of those records that won’t be touched.

---

Well people are trying to down play it because it’s the east. Not really realizing it’s not that easy

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by More-Than-Most

you mean those that grew up watching kobe? want me to show you the people that think iverson is a top 10 player including shaq because they are fans of the little man mentality and grew up watching him etc.......


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...st-player-ever


see what happens when someone watches and loves you... you become stupid... iverson isnt a top 30 player ever let alone the pound for pound goat bs.



here shaq himself

https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelph...-allen-iverson


O’Neal used the words “fierce,” “monster” and “beast” to describe Iverson. He believes Iverson and the Sixers would have won the title in 2001 had they played another team besides the Lakers. O’Neal also thinks he and Iverson could have won rings together had they been on the same squad, and he considers Iverson to be the one player he would have liked to have been teammates with in his career.

“If I had played with him in Philly, we would definitely have two or three,” O’Neal said.

“It’s OK to have a one-two punch, but when you’ve got a one-two punch that can knock you out with either hand. ... If there was one guy I would have liked to have played with, it definitely would have been A.I.”


had he played with iverson like he wished kobe would only have 2 rings right now at best.

---

No, I mean guys who actually played against both and guys who were teammates with both. You just don't like what they have to say so you dismiss it as idiotic and point out some cases of instances in which what they have said is silly. You can do the same with just about any analysts. As a matter of fact, they're colossally wrong on a daily basis with all the zany predictions they make which turn out to be wrong...by your logic, we should ignore their idiotic opinions as well...and if we do that there goes the case for LBJ being in the top 5.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by More-Than-Most

kobe on iverson

https://philadelphia.cbslocal.com/20...allen-iverson/



i mean by all of these PLAYERS OPINIONS iverson is goat right? GTFO... i mean hell iverson basically made kobe who he was right? in kobes words might i add.... see what happens when you listen to idiotic players opinions and take it as gospel to try and fit your narrative?


you wanna see players opinions on the **** that is gilbert arenas? :laugh:

---

I haven't heard too many players say AI was the GOAT, they give him a lot of credit but that's different than putting him at #1.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkieMark48

disagree, I think the talent of OKC was very very high, and I do think the Kings win the chip in 02 if G6 of the WCF wasn't rigged.... but cheers

---

They had Westbrook and KD and then they had Adams and Ibaka and a group of solid role players. They basically had 2 superstars (neither of which really knew how to win and a group of good players). The team didn't really execute well though and were mostly a team that played one-on-one in the half court (at least for me, I didn't think very highly of them at any point. I thought they were a good team but not serous contenders). I don't consider that a super stacked team. Compare that to the blazers, who had stoudamire, Steve smith, pippen, Wallace, Sabonis, and a deep, deep bench. The kings were even more stacked. I think the same can be said for most of the spurs teams of that era...I would also pick less stacked teams ahead of that OKC team, such as the 04 wolves, the 09 nuggets.

It's funny that some of you guys talk about game 6 of the kings series being rigged, but ignore the arguably worst officiated Game 5, which was far more egregious in terms of obvious missed calls and it occurred from start to finish. In the final minute alone of that game, there were like 4 fairly obvious missed calls or call in the wrong direction, and without all of those, the lakers are headed back to LA for game 6 up 3-2. This is the game where shaq shot 0 free throws, was whistled for numerous phantom calls, and ended up fouling out at some point in the 3rd. If any game in that series was rigged, it was Game 5. At most, both games 5 and 6 cancel out and the right team won in the end.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Moves03

The teams he won a championship team were highly talented so what you're saying doesn't apply to those teams. As for the other Cavs teams, sure, if he played out west he would have better team and with those teams it's very unlikely he would've made the finals 8 consecutive times in the west.

---

Gsw was on their way if it was not for two things. Team self destruct and injuries. Shaq kobe could have but then again the same thing team self destruct.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ldawg

https://larrybrownsports.com/basketb...-lebron/495983

Giannis Antetokounmpo Thought it was going to be easy with Lebron was out the way. Well Raps won. So 76ers, Bucks, Raps, Boston. One of these teams should go to the finals 8 straight times now that lebron is out the way. At the very least 4. Again it’s not as easy as it seems. It still stands. Is it that the east is weak or Lebron was just better than most? While the west did had 1 or 2 stronger teams no single player from the west would have done 8 straight trips.

---

Yeah, the year you are referencing is the year where it was no longer appropriate to say the East sucks. LBJ's Cavs would not have made it out of the east last year either. They only made it out the year before he left because the Celtics were badly injured (and the refs kind of still robbed Boston in that series). The east no longer sucks. Since last year, they've become respectable. It's still not as good as the west, but the east is no longer a laughing stock. The east has been horrible since either 2000 or 2001 up until 2018.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Moves03

I haven't heard too many players say AI was the GOAT, they give him a lot of credit but that's different than putting him at #1.

---

I heard they changed a rule after he crossed up Mj and they always called him pound for pound champ. It’s also said Shaq could have won with a number of guards and AI was one of them. That is not a knock on Kobe it’s just the way you can build a team with certain players. Kobe and Kg, Dirk, Duncan could of won as well. I don’t think him and Kidd would of won a title like he wanted to try

Okc was talented, KD was the best single player of the two teams, Westbrook mini mamba willed OKC to the playoffs after Durant left. Was Klay even considered a star? I think iggy won mvp off the bench guy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Moves03

Yeah, the year you are referencing is the year where it was no longer appropriate to say the East sucks. LBJ's Cavs would not have made it out of the east last year either. They only made it out the year before he left because the Celtics were badly injured (and the refs kind of still robbed Boston in that series). The east no longer sucks. Since last year, they've become respectable. It's still not as good as the west, but the east is no longer a laughing stock. The east has been horrible since either 2000 or 2001 up until 2018.

---

i don’t know. With love still there and if lebron stayed healthy I could see them making a move or two and be back in the finals last season. Lebron was the lone star in La and had that group of guys in 3rd seed beating GSW. Last year lakers was a group of rejects and young inexperienced who would not make the playoffs. The notion that they were better with him off the floor was laughable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ldawg

I heard they changed a rule after he crossed up Mj and they always called him pound for pound champ. It’s also said Shaq could have won with a number of guards and AI was one of them. That is not a knock on Kobe it’s just the way you can build a team with certain players. Kobe and Kg, Dirk, Duncan could of won as well. I don’t think him and Kidd would of won a title like he wanted to try

---

Yeah, im not denying that Shaq needed Kobe for all 3, as I think he could have won with another elite guard as well. I do think he needed Kobe for the 3-peat though. I think without Kobe we probably only get 2.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ldawg

Okc was talented, KD was the best single player of the two teams, Westbrook mini mamba willed OKC to the playoffs after Durant left. Was Klay even considered a star? I think iggy won mvp off the bench guy.

---

yeah, I'm not saying they weren't talented, I just wouldn't consider them to be super stacked like some of the other teams I was mentioning.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ldawg

i don’t know. With love still there and if lebron stayed healthy I could see them making a move or two and be back in the finals last season. Lebron was the lone star in La and had that group of guys in 3rd seed beating GSW. Last year lakers was a group of rejects and young inexperienced who would not make the playoffs. The notion that they were better with him off the floor was laughable.

---

Yeah, I'm not saying that the Cavs couldn't have added players and still competed, but that team as was constructed probably wouldn't have come out last year.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Moves03

Yeah, im not denying that Shaq needed Kobe for all 3, as I think he could have won with another elite guard as well. I do think he needed Kobe for the 3-peat though. I think without Kobe we probably only get 2.

---

yes he needed a guard to help him closed games. His bad free throws. He had success with penny, Kobe and wade.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Moves03

They had Westbrook and KD and then they had Adams and Ibaka and a group of solid role players. They basically had 2 superstars (neither of which really knew how to win and a group of good players). The team didn't really execute well though and were mostly a team that played one-on-one in the half court (at least for me, I didn't think very highly of them at any point. I thought they were a good team but not serous contenders). I don't consider that a super stacked team. Compare that to the blazers, who had stoudamire, Steve smith, pippen, Wallace, Sabonis, and a deep, deep bench. The kings were even more stacked. I think the same can be said for most of the spurs teams of that era...I would also pick less stacked teams ahead of that OKC team, such as the 04 wolves, the 09 nuggets.

It's funny that some of you guys talk about game 6 of the kings series being rigged, but ignore the arguably worst officiated Game 5, which was far more egregious in terms of obvious missed calls and it occurred from start to finish. In the final minute alone of that game, there were like 4 fairly obvious missed calls or call in the wrong direction, and without all of those, the lakers are headed back to LA for game 6 up 3-2. This is the game where shaq shot 0 free throws, was whistled for numerous phantom calls, and ended up fouling out at some point in the 3rd. If any game in that series was rigged, it was Game 5. At most, both games 5 and 6 cancel out and the right team won in the end.

---

I don't see youtube videos, articles and a former referee saying anything about G5, but ill take you at your word

Samaki Walkers shot shouldn't have counted, lakers shoulda lost G4

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MarkieMark48

I don't see youtube videos, articles and a former referee saying anything about G5, but ill take you at your word

Samaki Walkers shot shouldn't have counted, lakers shoulda lost G4

---

I don't know what shot you're talking about, but missed calls are part of the game. A bunch of missed calls that favor one team systematically is not part of the game. I'm pretty sure there's video out there that have highlighted how bad game 5 was. In the final minute, there was an obvious travel on one of the kings players (which would have given the lakers a key possession), the ball was then knocked out of bounds clearly by the kings, which allowed them to retain possession (this is the possessions on which bibby went on to hit the go-ahead jumper; they should have never had the ball), there was then an illegal screen set by webber, culminating in clear foul on bobby Jackson as Kobe took what would have been the game winning shot. This was all in the final minute. The entire game though was horribly one-sided in the kings favor. Shaq has explicitly called this out on how this was the earliest he had ever fouled out and how this was the only game of his entire career in which he shot 0 frees throws. You might not hear about this very often because the lakers won and the only people really concerned about the officiating are usually going to be those on the losing side. If the series was rigged, it was rigged to extend the series, which they managed to do twice: in game 5 and then in game 6, one for each team so in the end it's a wash.

There's also the highly debated issue of whether Game 6 (or any other game) was actually rigged, which in all likelihood, it was not. The bad calls in Game 6 were all borderline calls, which happened to break the lakers way. The same as game 5 which broke the kings way. most likely, it was just chance in both cases.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Moves03

The Cavs wouldn't be likely to play Toronto in the first round because they would finish with a good record. I have NBA league pass so I watched the Cavs play back then pretty often and the cavs fans do not hate LBJ anymore, just like Miami fans do no hate LBJ. A team with Kyrie and Love (before he was basically neutered by LBJ) would absolutely not lose in the first round in the east. That's absurd. It's possible they lose in the Eastern conference finals, but they'd easily coast in the first round. Outside of the top 3 teams in the east or so, the rest are on par with bottom-feeding lottery teams in the west.

---

Find a Cleveland fan that agrees. I’ll wait

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Moves03

No, I mean guys who actually played against both and guys who were teammates with both. You just don't like what they have to say so you dismiss it as idiotic and point out some cases of instances in which what they have said is silly. You can do the same with just about any analysts. As a matter of fact, they're colossally wrong on a daily basis with all the zany predictions they make which turn out to be wrong...by your logic, we should ignore their idiotic opinions as well...and if we do that there goes the case for LBJ being in the top 5.

---

Naw we can just look at a the statistical data that’s put a Bron #1...like he’s been the youngest person to surpass every scoring benchmark and he’s not even a scorer first. If we ignored what every player said all the evidence points to Bron as the GOAT anyway.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IKnowHoops

Naw we can just look at a the statistical data that’s put a Bron #1...like he’s been the youngest person to surpass every scoring benchmark and he’s not even a scorer first. If we ignored what every player said all the evidence points to Bron as the GOAT anyway.

---

That's because he was the first player to play heavy minutes right out of high school. Ignoring Kobe, LBJ doesn't stack up to MJ (and that's ignoring the adjustment you have to make for differences in era, which will only favor MJ) and he gets blown out of the water by Wilt, where there isn't even data for his blocks or steals, which would put him way out in front of LBJ if those were included, so even ignoring everything else LBJ is frankly not in the conversation of the GOAT. This is only a debate that the media pushes for selling purposes. LBJ is great, but doesn't belong in that conversation.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Moves03

That's because he was the first player to play heavy minutes right out of high school. Ignoring Kobe, LBJ doesn't stack up to MJ (and that's ignoring the adjustment you have to make for differences in era, which will only favor MJ) and he gets blown out of the water by Wilt, where there isn't even data for his blocks or steals, which would put him way out in front of LBJ if those were included, so even ignoring everything else LBJ is frankly not in the conversation of the GOAT. This is only a debate that the media pushes for selling purposes. LBJ is great, but doesn't belong in that conversation.

---

Nawh Lebron is just better man.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ldawg

Nawh Lebron is just better man.

---

Better than who? Certainly not MJ (that's not even close and im far from an MJ fan). If you want to go by stats there are others who blow him out of the water (e.g., Wilt). Winning wise, he doesn't stack up either, despite having better teams and more help than guys like Kobe. If I have one pick to start franchise, there's at least 8 guys I'm picking ahead of him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Moves03

Better than who? Certainly not MJ (that's not even close and im far from an MJ fan). If you want to go by stats there are others who blow him out of the water (e.g., Wilt). Winning wise, he doesn't stack up either, despite having better teams and more help than guys like Kobe. If I have one pick to start franchise, there's at least 8 guys I'm picking ahead of him.

---

oh i was just meant Kobe. Nawh MJ is Better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ldawg

oh i was just meant Kobe. Nawh MJ is Better.

---

I got no problem with those who have Jordan over Bron. They have very similar advanced statistics. Kobe had the exact same style as Jordan and even more help yet his stats don't compare to Mike's. There is an obvious reason for this and even if Big Moves chooses to ignore it, the world will not.

some of those old players are just ranked out of respect. The games has long advanced past many of those old guys. Those old guys still think an old stock 69 camaro is the best one ever made.

Well Lebron is different than those two and at best kobe is a great poor mans MJ.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IKnowHoops

I got no problem with those who have Jordan over Bron. They have very similar advanced statistics. Kobe had the exact same style as Jordan and even more help yet his stats don't compare to Mike's. There is an obvious reason for this and even if Big Moves chooses to ignore it, the world will not.

---

Kobe and LBJ don't have all that many things in common...one of them is though that neither is all that comparable to MJ. You could literally cut the second 3-peat out of MJ's career and he's still way out in front of LBJ...that says a lot, which is that is's absurd to even try and make the comparison.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Moves03

Kobe and LBJ don't have all that many things in common...one of them is though that neither is all that comparable to MJ. You could literally cut the second 3-peat out of MJ's career and he's still way out in front of LBJ...that says a lot, which is that is's absurd to even try and make the comparison.

---

Jordan wasn’t light years of ahead of every player ever. Durant with Pippen and Rodman can beat the Magic with Shaq and Penny. Take down the Jazz easily. Jordan never played Dream and 1 year to late to play Duncan. Durant can guard Worthy while Pippen guards Magic.

Kobe and James are right their with Jordan. Jordan is the highest tier but he’s not alone. The all time staring tier only has 3 back court players. James, Kobe, Jordan. Other 2 are bigs.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Moves03

That's because he was the first player to play heavy minutes right out of high school. Ignoring Kobe, LBJ doesn't stack up to MJ (and that's ignoring the adjustment you have to make for differences in era, which will only favor MJ) and he gets blown out of the water by Wilt, where there isn't even data for his blocks or steals, which would put him way out in front of LBJ if those were included, so even ignoring everything else LBJ is frankly not in the conversation of the GOAT. This is only a debate that the media pushes for selling purposes. LBJ is great, but doesn't belong in that conversation.

---

Dude, no way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bostonjorge

Jordan wasn’t light years of ahead of every player ever. Durant with Pippen and Rodman can beat the Magic with Shaq and Penny. Take down the Jazz easily. Jordan never played Dream and 1 year to late to play Duncan. Durant can guard Worthy while Pippen guards Magic.

Kobe and James are right their with Jordan. Jordan is the highest tier but he’s not alone. The all time staring tier only has 3 back court players. James, Kobe, Jordan. Other 2 are bigs.

---

I have kobe at #5 and LBJ at #9.

yea i can live with people saying jordan is goat over lebron but saying kobe is better or hell anywhere near lebron is so disrespectful its disgusting

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Moves03

That's because he was the first player to play heavy minutes right out of high school. Ignoring Kobe, LBJ doesn't stack up to MJ (and that's ignoring the adjustment you have to make for differences in era, which will only favor MJ) and he gets blown out of the water by Wilt, where there isn't even data for his blocks or steals, which would put him way out in front of LBJ if those were included, so even ignoring everything else LBJ is frankly not in the conversation of the GOAT. This is only a debate that the media pushes for selling purposes. LBJ is great, but doesn't belong in that conversation.

---

He played heavy minutes right out of high school because he was a once in a lifetime talent. The same reason why he’s about to be 35 and arguably the best player in the nba still. Nobody has been able to do what he does and that’s why he’s in the convo for goat. If being the all time playoff scoring leader was easy everyone would be doing it, if being the all time scoring leader period was easy, then everyone would be doing it. But instead those are stats relegated to those in the GOAT discussion bruh.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Big Moves03

Kobe and LBJ don't have all that many things in common...one of them is though that neither is all that comparable to MJ. You could literally cut the second 3-peat out of MJ's career and he's still way out in front of LBJ...that says a lot, which is that is's absurd to even try and make the comparison.

---

Based on your mindset only, which means nothing. It’s funny how Kobe anJordan had similar games, but Jordan’s advanced stats blow Kobe’s out the water. But then we look at Wilt and Kareem and Lebron, and they all have similar advanced stats and statistical dominance. It’s very telling that Kobe isnt on there level in any advanced stat but they all are grouped tightly. Wake up. It’s an Orgy of evidence that destroys your eye test and self formulated ring argument.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by More-Than-Most

yea i can live with people saying jordan is goat over lebron but saying kobe is better or hell anywhere near lebron is so disrespectful its disgusting

---

This debate is laughable. Has been for at least 5 years. But hey, whatever creates activity, even if the debate is as one sided as it gets. Keep at it fellas, while you believing Kobe can even sniff Lebron's jock at this point is honestly funny, at least it's positive activity I guess.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IKnowHoops

He played heavy minutes right out of high school because he was a once in a lifetime talent. The same reason why he’s about to be 35 and arguably the best player in the nba still. Nobody has been able to do what he does and that’s why he’s in the convo for goat. If being the all time playoff scoring leader was easy everyone would be doing it, if being the all time scoring leader period was easy, then everyone would be doing it. But instead those are stats relegated to those in the GOAT discussion bruh.

---

Do not tell moves about ability. Kobe high drive and flashy play will be capable to trump that no matter what. After all he played in the West and not the East, did not hand pick his teams, won with less talent and moved the ball like Magic. He got 5 rings so he must be more talented player right?

The only reason why Lakers are off to a good start is because hes playing the right now over the last five games. Lakers would be 19-0 if it was Lonzo and Davis because lonzo plays Defense and he Moves the Ball in flow of the game. Lebron need to stop stat padding because you cant win like that turning stars to role players. He wont make the playoffs in the West.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IKnowHoops

Based on your mindset only, which means nothing. It’s funny how Kobe anJordan had similar games, but Jordan’s advanced stats blow Kobe’s out the water. But then we look at Wilt and Kareem and Lebron, and they all have similar advanced stats and statistical dominance. It’s very telling that Kobe isnt on there level in any advanced stat but they all are grouped tightly. Wake up. It’s an Orgy of evidence that destroys your eye test and self formulated ring argument.

---

Nawh man Kobe did not care about stats. Lebron turn stars into role players and you cant win games like that him stat padding. Kobe played with an injured finger advanced stats dont mean anything its not reliable. See what i did there.

Lakers had to play against 35 playoff teams with 50 wins or more. Toughest championship road ever.

List of MVP’s Lakers had to play to reach 5 championships. Only Western Conference.

Duncan
KG
Dirk
KD
Harden
Westbrook
Robinson
Malone
Nash
Iverson(Nuggets)
Parker(Finals MVP)
Billups(Final MVP)

1996-2016 western conference is by far the peak of Basketball competition. The absolute highest level of Basketball competition.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Bostonjorge

Lakers had to play against 35 playoff teams with 50 wins or more. Toughest championship road ever.

List of MVP’s Lakers had to play to reach 5 championships. Only Western Conference.

Duncan
KG
Dirk
KD
Harden
Westbrook
Robinson
Malone
Nash
Iverson(Nuggets)
Parker(Finals MVP)
Billups(Final MVP)

1996-2016 western conference is by far the peak of Basketball competition. The absolute highest level of Basketball competition.

---

Ok now remove Shaq.

I’m not so sure even Jordan could win 72% of the time in the Western Conference against the absolute best teams. Duncan got the closes with 64%.

2008-2010. Lakers played 11 teams with 50 wins or more. Only 1 team was under 50 at 48 wins.

Only 4 teams in history beat 4 teams with 50 wins or more in a single playoff. Kobe was on 3 of them. From 2008-2010 Lakers did it twice.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ldawg

Ok now remove Shaq.

---

Everyone seen Kobe without Shaq. Elite achievements. The achievements earned with Shaq still count. Remove Pippen from Jordan and Wade from Lebron. What do those guys look like? All comparable if you ask me.

Cleveland win over the 73-9 Warriors was a super elite achievement that resulted in a Championship. Championship is the end game and will always be the GOAT achievement.

Jordan was the only other player to get 3k points in a season. A extremely rare badge. The years Jordan started winning he wasn’t close to getting 3k points in a season. What I mean by close is certain elite players started catching up to that 2.7-2.8k mark. No championship.

Lakers got a back to back Championship. You look up a GOAT list and many of the legends on it don’t have this rare achievement. Kobe also reached 2.8k in points only behind Jordan and Wilt.