Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by nastynice

Or another way to look at it is their ancestors (physically) built this country too, and economy, so they get a piece back.

Haha whatever works I guess

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My grandfather was a 2 time prisoner of war after having the bombers he was piloting shot down. He made certain that every person on those planes got out before he did. Hence why he was a 2 time prisoner of war. He's passed, so should I get reparations?

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Originally Posted by dbroncsinmo

My grandfather was a 2 time prisoner of war after having the bombers he was piloting shot down. He made certain that every person on those planes got out before he did. Hence why he was a 2 time prisoner of war. He's passed, so should I get reparations?

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If that's how you feel then fight whatever fight you feel necessary..

The only thing AOC has done is pander for votes from social issue to social issue to boost her twitter feeds to become some sort of “faux social warrior for justice”.......nothing she does remotely resembles actual governing of a responsible elected official.

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Originally Posted by Scoots

I didn't come here.

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You stay here.

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Originally Posted by ciaban2.0

Accept responsibility for whose actions?

Because with reparations, everyone pays in including Asians, Latino's and Native Americans who NEVER benefited from Slavery, as well as most white folks who either aren't descended from Slave Owners and whose ancestors either fought for emancipation or came here in the post-antebellum era.

At a certain point, it just seems like we're saying that because Scoots has some genetic link to someone who was mean to someone else ancestor he's responsible for that person's actions....also, Asians and Latino's need to pay in too.

As far as the "benefits" we've received due to slavery, there are some pretty strong economic arguments that show the South was severely held back by slavery.

Very few people actually benefited from slavery, to make everyone pay reparations to people who weren't personally affected by it seems dubious.

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Seriously, learn how to read.

Where in my post that you quoted did I mention slavery? Where in either of the other two posts I have made on this subject did I mention slavery?

Here let me help you out:

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Originally Posted by Crovash

I too am not for reparations, as such. But I do have a problem with the reasoning here.

Those of us alive in this country today benefit greatly from the actions of our forebearers. I doubt we’d be all that interested in tossing those benefits out just because we weren’t alive at the time.

But some of those actions were morally questionable (at best), and in some cases, the benefits we enjoy are linked to these actions.

How we accept responsibility for those actions is open for debate, but I do think we have to accept some form of recognition for the negative, particularly if we continue to take advantage of the postive.

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Originally Posted by Crovash

I am talking about the USA.

And my question (to borrow a page out of Sluggo’s book): So why did they [later immigrants]come here? Because of what this country offers by way of benefits, and the source of many of those benefits goes back a lot further than when these folk arrived, but I am pretty sure they were hoping to garner their piece of the American pie.

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I’m talking about responsibility (NOT blame, thank you) for our collective history.

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Originally Posted by Crovash

I’m talking about responsibility (NOT blame, thank you) for our collective history.

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But that responsibility is being talked about as money and that responsibility is to who?

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Originally Posted by ciaban2.0

Accept responsibility for whose actions?

Because with reparations, everyone pays in including Asians, Latino's and Native Americans who NEVER benefited from Slavery, as well as most white folks who either aren't descended from Slave Owners and whose ancestors either fought for emancipation or came here in the post-antebellum era.

At a certain point, it just seems like we're saying that because Scoots has some genetic link to someone who was mean to someone else ancestor he's responsible for that person's actions....also, Asians and Latino's need to pay in too.

As far as the "benefits" we've received due to slavery, there are some pretty strong economic arguments that show the South was severely held back by slavery.

Very few people actually benefited from slavery, to make everyone pay reparations to people who weren't personally affected by it seems dubious.

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Yep. If this was a step we were going to take, we are 150 years past the time to do it.

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Originally Posted by benny01

Yep. If this was a step we were going to take, we are 150 years past the time to do it.

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Or maybe 50 years since 49 years ago the last former slave supposedly died.

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Originally Posted by Crovash

I too am not for reparations, as such. But I do have a problem with the reasoning here.

Those of us alive in this country today benefit greatly from the actions of our forebearers. I doubt we’d be all that interested in tossing those benefits out just because we weren’t alive at the time.

But some of those actions were morally questionable (at best), and in some cases, the benefits we enjoy are linked to these actions.

How we accept responsibility for those actions is open for debate, but I do think we have to accept some form of recognition for the negative, particularly if we continue to take advantage of the postive.

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Originally Posted by Scoots

But that responsibility is being talked about as money and that responsibility is to who?

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You are talking about money. I am not and I have in fact said so.

There are other ways to take reponsibility beyond admitting and apologizing — those are good first steps, however. It took the US 43 years to issue a formal apology for Japanese internment (interestingly, that came with financial reparations if I recall correctly).

It took well over 100 years for the US government to do the same for the Native Americans, though that one was a kind of backhanded offer. https://www.thoughtco.com/the-us-apo...ricans-3974561

Things like Affirmative Action — which I know is controversial and has an indirect economic component — are further measures devoted to (perhaps) imperfect ways to take responsibility.

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Originally Posted by Crovash

You are talking about money. I am not and I have in fact said so.

There are other ways to take reponsibility beyond admitting and apologizing — those are good first steps, however. It took the US 43 years to issue a formal apology for Japanese internment (interestingly, that came with financial reparations if I recall correctly).

It took well over 100 years for the US government to do the same for the Native Americans, though that one was a kind of backhanded offer. https://www.thoughtco.com/the-us-apo...ricans-3974561

Things like Affirmative Action — which I know is controversial and has an indirect economic component — are further measures devoted to (perhaps) imperfect ways to take responsibility.

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And all of them take the form of money.

I don't take personal or governmental responsibility for things that happened so long ago nobody alive now witnessed them.

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Originally Posted by Scoots

Or maybe 50 years since 49 years ago the last former slave supposedly died.

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I guess, maybe. Would have been a hard sell for my immigrant great-grand parents who immigrated between 1880 and 1930. Only one line of my family tree extends further back than that and they are Native American, so they go way back. I don’t want to discount the white privilege that they benefitted from, but these are reparations for slavery not privilege.

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Originally Posted by Scoots

And all of them take the form of money.

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Incorrect. But that’s beside the point.

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Originally Posted by Scoots

I don't take personal or governmental responsibility for things that happened so long ago nobody alive now witnessed them.

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Eh, fine. Suit yourself.

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Originally Posted by dbroncos78087

It absolutely makes a difference. If people who weren’t here for the original crime can be punished, can all people who benefited from America be punished too? What about Europeans who were saved from WWII? What about people around the world who benefited from the tobacco and cotton trade?

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It's not about punishing a person... it's about punishing an institution. If somebody did nothing wrong at one of these banks that did all sorts of ****ed up **** wrong circa 2007... even if they were hired after, if that bank is punished (The institution) it might hurt an individual who did nothing wrong. But it's about institutional responsibility not personal responsibility.

I have no ****ing clue what to do about this ****. I'm guessing trying to stamp out institutionalized racism would be the best way to go... but most of the folks who need to hear that don't believe it.

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Originally Posted by Scoots

The poverty rates in Africa are not exactly great.

I can't remember the book at the moment, but I read a book by a black scholar many years ago who made the point that the subsequent generations of black slaves were much better off than had their ancestors been left where they were. The author was skewered for the position, but it was academically accepted IIRC. Black people in the US were screwed pretty heavily after slavery was abolished, but that's not reparations for slavery related.

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I've heard that argument... the general counter is the slave trade did alot of damage to the social structure in general in Africa, and colonialism beat down the rest. So it's really a question of who do you want to be ****ed by.. Americans and Europeans or just Europeans.

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Originally Posted by nastynice

Sure, and the state of Africa is not slavery related either. It is more related to colonization and the carving up the continent in such a manner to have the best interest of Europe in mind, which more often than not coincided with the worst interest of Africa in mind.

I'm not comparing them to Africans in Africa, I'm comparing them to Americans in America. Whenever I speak on this topic.

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Oh you got to this before me.