Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez

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Originally Posted by mngopher35

Healthcare for all, raising minimum wage etc that would help those in need are not policies that are tried in part to keep things the way they are


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That's it. Healthcare for all and raide minimum wage? Do that and you'll be happy?

Let's take a look……

Lizzie is talking $32 trillion (that's with a "T", Tango) for healthcare for all. And many say that's at the low end. Before we go any further, try to step back and think about how much $32 trillion is (that's with a "T", Tango) is. It's an unimaginable number. It is unrealistic, it will never happen and Lizzie knows it. So you are being misled here.

Obama tried his plan and it pretty much did not work like he "promised."

That's your first point.

Second point…raise minimum wage. OK…let's say $15 minimum for the hamburger flippers, pizza delivery guys. About 20% of them will be out of jobs immediately and your burgers and pizzas will cost more. You OK with that.

Now the real problem…after a few years of $15 minimum wage for the hamburger flippers, pizza delivery guys, most of them still will not make it. What now, go to $20. One of the Dems has already proposed a $20 min wage. (Can't remember who.)

And your last phrase…"policies that are tried in part to keep things the way they are"…are you implying that there are people out there conspiring to intentionally keep the poor down (maybe one of Crovash's legendary "cabals")? Is that what you are saying? Because if that is so, no matter what programs are thrown against the wall for the alleged underclass, it will never be enough for people like you. There will always be something else that needs to be done for them.

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Originally Posted by Crovash

Nope. Just one.

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So I guess you are speaking for yourself.

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Originally Posted by Sluggo1

That's it. Healthcare for all and raide minimum wage? Do that and you'll be happy?

Let's take a look……

Lizzie is talking $32 trillion (that's with a "T", Tango) for healthcare for all. And many say that's at the low end. Before we go any further, try to step back and think about how much $32 trillion is (that's with a "T", Tango) is. It's an unimaginable number. It is unrealistic, it will never happen and Lizzie knows it. So you are being misled here.

Obama tried his plan and it pretty much did not work like he "promised."

That's your first point.

Second point…raise minimum wage. OK…let's say $15 minimum for the hamburger flippers, pizza delivery guys. About 20% of them will be out of jobs immediately and your burgers and pizzas will cost more. You OK with that.

Now the real problem…after a few years of $15 minimum wage for the hamburger flippers, pizza delivery guys, most of them still will not make it. What now, go to $20. One of the Dems has already proposed a $20 min wage. (Can't remember who.)

And your last phrase…"policies that are tried in part to keep things the way they are"…are you implying that there are people out there conspiring to intentionally keep the poor down (maybe one of Crovash's legendary "cabals")? Is that what you are saying? Because if that is so, no matter what programs are thrown against the wall for the alleged underclass, it will never be enough for people like you. There will always be something else that needs to be done for them.

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https://www.ajmc.com/newsroom/federa...e-for-all-plan

As a result, under Medicare for All, total health spending in 2031 would come to approximately $303 billion lower than what is currently projected. The country’s overall national health expenditures would be $2 trillion lower from 2022 to 2031, according to the Mercatus model.

This has been pointed out before Sluggo but overall we are spending roughly 3.5 trillion per year already and in this it says the estimated costs yearly would be more like 2.5-3 mil per year. So while yes the cost for healthcare will be great, it will overall be less than we are currently paying now. I want you to think about that for a second as you are being mislead here. It isn't an unimaginable number it is a number that is lower than we are projected to be paying as a country currently you just weren't aware (or maybe capable of imaging?) of the reality of said costs currently.

Second point is random made up numbers but there is plenty of evidence out there on that and I have shared it as well in other threads. I don't really care if people working every day are getting $15 per hour and if necessary due to inflation etc. eventually sure $20 might make sense in the future. Pizza delivery, burger flippers etc. deserve a decent wage to help provide for a family too imo. I do agree that job loss is a concern here though but I would be alright with ensuring safety nets for those unemployed so for me it is less of an issue (my guess is you would be against this).

I am saying that currently certain people/groups are benefiting from said system and putting a lot of energy/money to keep the system as is or minimal changes that won't actually make much difference (or worse and are harmful etc), correct. I am not saying the intention is necessarily to keep the poor down but it is one of the effects we have seen in said system over time as wage gap rises etc.

That wouldn't be all but it's a couple examples to throw out quick at work on my phone. Changing the tax structure both for individuals (raising taxes on high income while potentially lowering the bottom level, close loopholes as well) and corporations (this one is a bit more complex imo but closing certain loopholes, paying for damage to the environment and so on all come into play while not wanting the tax rate to be too high as we do want to encourage business still). Reducing military is an obvious one to help as well. There are tons of changes that could be made to help people/provide more $ towards people in need instead of adding to military budget etc. but again a lot of it is left policy related which is a problem to many.

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Originally Posted by mngopher35

https://www.ajmc.com/newsroom/federa...e-for-all-plan

As a result, under Medicare for All, total health spending in 2031 would come to approximately $303 billion lower than what is currently projected. The country’s overall national health expenditures would be $2 trillion lower from 2022 to 2031, according to the Mercatus model.

This has been pointed out before Sluggo but overall we are spending roughly 3.5 trillion per year already and in this it says the estimated costs yearly would be more like 2.5-3 mil per year. So while yes the cost for healthcare will be great, it will overall be less than we are currently paying now. I want you to think about that for a second as you are being mislead here. It isn't an unimaginable number it is a number that is lower than we are projected to be paying as a country currently you just weren't aware (or maybe capable of imaging?) of the reality of said costs currently.

Second point is random made up numbers but there is plenty of evidence out there on that and I have shared it as well in other threads. I don't really care if people working every day are getting $15 per hour and if necessary due to inflation etc. eventually sure $20 might make sense in the future. Pizza delivery, burger flippers etc. deserve a decent wage to help provide for a family too imo. I do agree that job loss is a concern here though but I would be alright with ensuring safety nets for those unemployed so for me it is less of an issue (my guess is you would be against this).

I am saying that currently certain people/groups are benefiting from said system and putting a lot of energy/money to keep the system as is or minimal changes that won't actually make much difference (or worse and are harmful etc), correct. I am not saying the intention is necessarily to keep the poor down but it is one of the effects we have seen in said system over time as wage gap rises etc.

That wouldn't be all but it's a couple examples to throw out quick at work on my phone. Changing the tax structure both for individuals (raising taxes on high income while potentially lowering the bottom level, close loopholes as well) and corporations (this one is a bit more complex imo but closing certain loopholes, paying for damage to the environment and so on all come into play while not wanting the tax rate to be too high as we do want to encourage business still). Reducing military is an obvious one to help as well. There are tons of changes that could be made to help people/provide more $ towards people in need instead of adding to military budget etc. but again a lot of it is left policy related which is a problem to many.

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They made the same push against Obamacare by saying that it would drastically increase medical spending and then of course it actually reduced it.

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Originally Posted by Sluggo1

See the post above this one.

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Let's say you thought that the nationals would win game 7 because an alien was going to come down from the sky and obliterate the astros for cultural appropriation? Would you be right about the world series?

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Originally Posted by flips333

Let's say you thought that the nationals would win game 7 because an alien was going to come down from the sky and obliterate the astros for cultural appropriation? Would you be right about the world series?

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I have no idea what any of this means and, I suspect, that makes two of us.

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Originally Posted by mngopher35

https://www.ajmc.com/newsroom/federa...e-for-all-plan

As a result, under Medicare for All, total health spending in 2031 would come to approximately $303 billion lower than what is currently projected. The country’s overall national health expenditures would be $2 trillion lower from 2022 to 2031, according to the Mercatus model.

This has been pointed out before Sluggo but overall we are spending roughly 3.5 trillion per year already and in this it says the estimated costs yearly would be more like 2.5-3 mil per year. So while yes the cost for healthcare will be great, it will overall be less than we are currently paying now. I want you to think about that for a second as you are being mislead here. It isn't an unimaginable number it is a number that is lower than we are projected to be paying as a country currently you just weren't aware (or maybe capable of imaging?) of the reality of said costs currently.

Second point is random made up numbers but there is plenty of evidence out there on that and I have shared it as well in other threads. I don't really care if people working every day are getting $15 per hour and if necessary due to inflation etc. eventually sure $20 might make sense in the future. Pizza delivery, burger flippers etc. deserve a decent wage to help provide for a family too imo. I do agree that job loss is a concern here though but I would be alright with ensuring safety nets for those unemployed so for me it is less of an issue (my guess is you would be against this).

I am saying that currently certain people/groups are benefiting from said system and putting a lot of energy/money to keep the system as is or minimal changes that won't actually make much difference (or worse and are harmful etc), correct. I am not saying the intention is necessarily to keep the poor down but it is one of the effects we have seen in said system over time as wage gap rises etc.

That wouldn't be all but it's a couple examples to throw out quick at work on my phone. Changing the tax structure both for individuals (raising taxes on high income while potentially lowering the bottom level, close loopholes as well) and corporations (this one is a bit more complex imo but closing certain loopholes, paying for damage to the environment and so on all come into play while not wanting the tax rate to be too high as we do want to encourage business still). Reducing military is an obvious one to help as well. There are tons of changes that could be made to help people/provide more $ towards people in need instead of adding to military budget etc. but again a lot of it is left policy related which is a problem to many.

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All these studies leave off several points.

Once there is universal healthcare, people will be going to the doctor/emergency rooms/clinics for everything. Very quickly, "tummy aches" that were once treated at home with chicken soup will become $300 (or more) services rendered by "professionals." You will start to see scraped knees requiring a $25 bandaids plus $100 tetanus shots and Bactine sprayed on by qualified professionals with a Rx (that's a prescription) for something on the way out the door.

Bottom line…as soon as someone else is paying for something, feel free to run up the bill. (One of the reasons college tuition is so high is that the government makes studen loans available pretty much on demand. Schools can charge whatever they want and the loan gets dumped onto the students. The schools always get their money.

Another crazy little fact that will pop up is that far mor doctors will leave the profession than will be entering the profession. Too many headaches, pay will drop, patients will increase, far more stress. If you don't believe this, talk to some doctors.

RE: Minimum wage. The higher it gets, the more unemployment you will see. It is basic economics (not to mention common sense…a factor you're not supposed to use for some reason.) People will be laid off, people who leave will not be replaced and jobs will be automated out of existence.

I was in the Minneapolis airport in early June. Restaurant I was in has 30 tables (I counted) and one waitress. Every table had a gizmo…order what you want (pictures and all) eventually she delivers what you order and you pay on the gizmo. No conversation needed. This is what will happen more and more as you raise minimum wage. Fast food places already have it to a lesser degree and you will see more of it.

When it comes to raising prices to your customer (income) or raising salaries to your employees (expense) the employees lose…every time. Usually it will be a slight increase in price paired with a large reduction in staff. It's that common sense thingy that we are not supposed to consider.

It's well established, and even common sense, that preventative medicine saves everyone massive amounts of money in the long run.

If you go into the doctor because you have a "tummy ache", and because it won't cost you anything additional, and it turns out you have stage 1 cancer...that's good. The alternative is not going because you worry about the cost and you wait and then you have stage 4 cancer. Then everyone suffers. You WANT people going to the doctor. It's a good thing if people don't have to worry about it.

But feel free to provide anything scholarly to back up your point.

Also, feel free to provide anything scholarly that suggests universal healthcare will lead to doctors getting paid less. The problem people have is not that doctor's make to much, it's the insurance companies. No one who supports single payer wants doctors being paid less. It also sounds like our current system and insurance practices aren't already an absolute headache for EVERYONE involved :laugh: One of the beauties of single payer is it simplifies and streamlines everything.

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Originally Posted by ManRam

It's well established, and even common sense, that preventative medicine saves everyone massive amounts of money in the long run.

If you go into the doctor because you have a "tummy ache", and because it won't cost you anything additional, and it turns out you have stage 1 cancer...that's good. The alternative is not going because you worry about the cost and you wait and then you have stage 4 cancer. Then everyone suffers. You WANT people going to the doctor. It's a good thing if people don't have to worry about it.

But feel free to provide anything scholarly to back up your point.

Also, feel free to provide anything scholarly that suggests universal healthcare will lead to doctors getting paid less. The problem people have is not that doctor's mak much, it's the insurance companies. No one who supports single payer wants doctors being paid less. It also sounds like our current system and insurance practices aren't already an absolute headache for EVERYONE involved :laugh: One of the beauties of single payer is it simplifies and streamlines everything.

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Bold 1…………s t r e t c h

Bold 2…talk to some doctors.

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Originally Posted by Sluggo1

Bold 1…………s t r e t c h

Bold 2…talk to some doctors.

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He's actually factually correct. It costs society and the Government more to treat people who don't go to the Doctor for fear of not being able to pay because their problems compound. If you think that people not going to the doctor now costs less than people going to the doctor more under universal healthcare, you've got it backwards.

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Originally Posted by Sluggo1

All these studies leave off several points.

Once there is universal healthcare, people will be going to the doctor/emergency rooms/clinics for everything. Very quickly, "tummy aches" that were once treated at home with chicken soup will become $300 (or more) services rendered by "professionals." You will start to see scraped knees requiring a $25 bandaids plus $100 tetanus shots and Bactine sprayed on by qualified professionals with a Rx (that's a prescription) for something on the way out the door.

Bottom line…as soon as someone else is paying for something, feel free to run up the bill. (One of the reasons college tuition is so high is that the government makes studen loans available pretty much on demand. Schools can charge whatever they want and the loan gets dumped onto the students. The schools always get their money.

Another crazy little fact that will pop up is that far mor doctors will leave the profession than will be entering the profession. Too many headaches, pay will drop, patients will increase, far more stress. If you don't believe this, talk to some doctors.

RE: Minimum wage. The higher it gets, the more unemployment you will see. It is basic economics (not to mention common sense…a factor you're not supposed to use for some reason.) People will be laid off, people who leave will not be replaced and jobs will be automated out of existence.

I was in the Minneapolis airport in early June. Restaurant I was in has 30 tables (I counted) and one waitress. Every table had a gizmo…order what you want (pictures and all) eventually she delivers what you order and you pay on the gizmo. No conversation needed. This is what will happen more and more as you raise minimum wage. Fast food places already have it to a lesser degree and you will see more of it.

When it comes to raising prices to your customer (income) or raising salaries to your employees (expense) the employees lose…every time. Usually it will be a slight increase in price paired with a large reduction in staff. It's that common sense thingy that we are not supposed to consider.

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So no facts and ignoring what Mandan/valade say below and the actual studies provided.

Automation is coming whether we raise minimum wage or not lol.

The facts say one thing but you already are set in your beliefs, as stated there are options but they involve left policy which you won't support despite factual evidence


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Originally Posted by mngopher35

So no facts and ignoring what Mandan/valade say below and the actual studies provided.

Automation is coming whether we raise minimum wage or not lol.

The facts say one thing but you already are set in your beliefs, as stated there are options but they involve left policy which you won't support despite factual evidence


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Yep. Automation is coming in pretty much any scenario that doesn't involve a return to $0.00/hr wages that the south loved so much.

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Originally Posted by Sluggo1

I have no idea what any of this means and, I suspect, that makes two of us.

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My god you are dense. You came to the right answer for the wrong reasoning.

Sometimes I’d go to the doctor just for fun before i even had insurance!
Now I’m there daily

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Originally Posted by ewing

Sometimes I’d go to the doctor just for fun before i even had insurance!
Now I’m there daily

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Every time Americans make fun of Canada’s health insurance, they check themselves into a doctor to make sure they’re ok.